Tisha B'Av - God removed his presence
I just don't get it. First in a series of God knows how many.
Can someone explain this to me?
God took away the Neviim from us because we were not behaving ourselves. And if that wasn't enough, because we still had not repented, we lost the second Bais Hamikdosh as well. Still not behaving? God sends the Church, the Muslims, the Nazi's, etc.
If you had a troubled child, what's the right way to handle the situation. Do you throw your child out? Do you to smack him senseless? Do you excommunicate him. Do you embarrass her in front of the rest of the class?
That's a sure way of losing him or her forever.
Yeah, yeah, I've hear the Dubner Magid parables about a King who teaches his son a lesson by throwing him out of the palace. Well, it's a poor example. Firstly in most cases it simply does not work. We see first hand, how children that are not loved, do not behave well.
Secondly, the Prince is still well aware of the kings majesty. The King has not gone into hiding.
If we didn't behave when God's Neviim were with us, how can God expect better now when there are no prophets?
If we didn't behave when there were open miracles in the first Temple, when the Shechina was manifest, how can God expect better of us now?
It's like a student that's not doing well in school, what do you do? Do you fire the teacher and bring in a lesser instructor? No, you need to add tutoring, not take away the teacher.
If the Dor Deah sinned, how would we do better?
The people who witnessed Yetsias Mitzraim, the people who are the basis for the Kuzari's argument, rebelled countless times, we're going to do better? We who are far removed and have no idea whether there even is a God are going to get it right?
God needs to move closer to us, not further away.
I know this is nothing new, and my treatment of this above is quite superficial, but stripped down to bare bones that's the situation.
It just makes no sense.
May the nation of Israel live safely and securely together with the rest of the world.
12 Comments:
I heard a speech this shabbos about how the world keep knocking us down and we survive. We are the winners.
Well isnt that Hizbollah says?
israel destroys everything, but as long as one of them survives they are the winner.
It sounds like a perversion of the term winning.
How different is taliban, hisbollah from orthodox ideology.
why is it that we seem to say the same things?
How can we be the truth, if every uses the same lines?
>"Can someone explain this to me?
God took away the Neviim from us because we were not behaving ourselves. And if that wasn't enough, because we still had not repented, we lost the second Bais Hamikdosh as well. Still not behaving? God sends the Church, the Muslims, the Nazi's, etc"
Well,here is the Orthodox -Chareidi
answer:
We deserve punishment because we are an 'am kshe oref'.
We are still his children because of the covenant He made with the Avot.
As He loves us so much He has no choice but punish us .He just follows the advice given in Proverbs 13:24 "chosech shivto sone beno"
This the traditonal answer.
Take it or leave it...
Happy, it is interesting when you look at it from the Muslim side, which I hate to do.
Don't forget they're also praying to the same monotheist God as we are and there's a lot more of them than us. That's a scary thought.
I once heard a Rav say that Yoshmoel is very strong because God is still rewarding them for Bris Mila.
Don't ask me what it all means.
Jewishskeptic, That answer used to satisfy me, but not anymore. I guess it doesn't float your boat either.
Irviner, barring this last generation of blessing, it certainly doesn't seem as if our punishments have been getting any easier. On the contrary, it seems to be getting worse. Not that I can really know, but according to one history book I've read, until the 1850's or so there was no real anti-semitism. Everyone was treated badly, e.g.the inquisition reaaly targeted Christicans. IN early Rome, Christians were thrown to the lions. The Crusades was the Christicans targeting th Muslim's. Yes, we got caught up in it, but we were not the real targets. Check out God, Jews & History by Max Dimont. So anti-semitism, where jews were singled out, is something new to plauge us. God has been treating the Jews with kid gloves lately? I don't think so.
And besides, I can understand punishment, but the concept of Hester Panim still does not sit well. If we can't cut it when God's Shechina is here, how will we live up to it when there's Hester Panim?
As for God not leaving, the metaphor we've always learnt is that the schechina left.
BHB.
>"I once heard a Rav say that Yoshmoel is very strong because God is still rewarding them for Bris Mila"
Yes,I too heard this nonesense.
I even saw it in print in a pamphlet by a keruv clown rabbi..
Irviner, so Yishmoel is now a Metzuvo V'eose?
As for seprating Shecina from Ball, exactly I'm not. You asked how I can state that God left us. I replied because we always have been told that the Shecina left. Ergo, so God left us.
Where did I say I agree with that historian? I specifically said I don't know!
IC, I really don't follow what you're saying about the prophets. All I know is that God punished us with Hester Panim, right? So I repeat, If the Dor Deah could not please God, even with open miracles, how will we ever please God?
> Hester Panim is not a punishment,
IC, If I recall correctly, its a punishment in the Tochacha, "Vanochi Aster.."
I'll look it up when I get a chance.
IC, see Pasuk 17.
http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash/+mwwBmehEt3WhwwwxFqwqFqcyn1BnGdDdMOmFqwnFqpwDmaoaioccaromnhzmxwww/article.html
Devarim 31:17
And I will wax angry at them on that day and I will forsake them and I shall conceal My face from them and they will be for consuming and many evils and troubles will happen to them; and they will say on that day, "Look! Because my G-d is not within me did these evils happen to me."
Irviner, I think I reached the limit for going around in circles, at least for this one post :)
For one thing, the stress of the exile has purified the Jewish people. Only the most sincere have remained. At the same time, many gentiles have joined as the Jews have wandered the world. So the worst Jews have left and the best gentiles have joined.
I always knew was sincere.
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