18 September 2006

Lyrics by Time Rice & Baal Habos

I recently had Email conversations with some people about being trapped in their lives.

Below are the lyrics to a haunting song in AIDA. This is a song by a princess who recognizes that she wasted her life and is looking for unrequited love.
It's one of the most beautiful broadway songs I've ever heard.

Lyrics slightly modifed by yours truly to fit the situation.

It may not mean much to you without the accompaning vocalization and music, but here goes:



How did I come to this?
How did I slip and fall?
How did I throw half a lifetime away
Without any thought at all?

This should have been my time
It's over, it never began
I closed my eyes to so much for so long
and I no longer can

I try to blame it on Taiveh
Some kind of shift in my heart
But I know the truth and it haunts me
It’s grown a little too clear
I know the truth and it mocks me
I know the truth and it shocks me
It's grown a little too clear

Why do I want it still?
Why, when there's nothing there?
How to go on with the rest of my life
To pretend that I care
This should've been my life
It's over-It never began
I closed my eyes to so much for so long
and I no longer can

I try to blame it on Taiveh
Some kind of shift in my heart
But I know the truth and it haunts me
I learned it a little too late

Oh I know the truth and it mocks me
I know the truth and it shocks me
I learned it a little too late
Too late

  • ===> Use Haloscan: |
  • Do NOT enter new comments here 102 comments Do NOT use. links to this post

    102 Comments:

    At September 18, 2006 2:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I dont go to slichos anymore. Not the first night or any night or any morning. What I find amazing is how many people put their whole lives into this. Why??? We are probably the best of all people around and somehow we convince ourselves or perhaps let the rabbis convince us that we are guilty of something. Why are we allowing a guilt trip to be laid upon us?

     
    At September 18, 2006 5:47 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    I'm not sure what this has to do with the Tim Rice post, but good people do go nuts about slichos for some reason.

    Noone questions you about where you are?

    We may be the best though, BECAUSE, we go thru all this stuff.

     
    At September 18, 2006 6:39 PM, Anonymous HAKOLHAVEL said...

    ARE YOU CURRENTLY DOING SLICHOS EVERY DAY

     
    At September 18, 2006 6:51 PM, Anonymous HAKOLHEVEL said...

    I HAVE KNOW IDEA WHAT THE SONG BEHIND THOSE LYRICS IS BUT I DEFINITELY CAN RELATE TO IT.

     
    At September 18, 2006 7:29 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    I also haven't heard the song, but I can relate to the words.

    > Noone questions you about where you are?

    You can just do what my husband does... there are two main possible shules for him to go to. Each one assumes he's at the other.

     
    At September 18, 2006 7:35 PM, Anonymous HAKOLHEVEL said...

    BJ- THAT NAME MAKES ME THINK ABOUT MIKEL JACKSON-AT LEAST AS A WOMEN YOU DONT HAVE TO SPEND ENDLESS HOURS MUMBLING AWAY DURING THE "YOMIM NAROIM".

     
    At September 18, 2006 8:08 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    hakol, no need to scream (caps). Welcome. Yeah, I'd be missed. But I come a little late, etc

     
    At September 18, 2006 10:39 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Baal,

    "but good people do go nuts about slichos for some reason."

    You know what freaks me out, those guys who really hit themselves hard during the ashamnu bagadnu portion.

    *Thwack!* *Thwack!*

    You can hear them all the way across the room.

    What's really strange to know is that I briefly was the same way for a couple of years during my childhood. Later on I realized that self-flaggellation was too weird for me and that the strikes were symbolic. Now I take the whole service symbolically.

     
    At September 18, 2006 11:35 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Hakol: well, in the past I've done all the davening. This year I have a great excuse: my baby. But, I actually quite like the Yamim Noraim services, apart from how long they are. The nusach is nice and parts of it are beautifully poetic.

    Ortho: Yeah the twacking is weird. Usually done by the same people who cover their faces with their siddurim and shockel a lot. Do only girls do that? I guess guys have a tallit...

     
    At September 18, 2006 11:45 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

    This should have been my time
    It's over, it never began
    I closed my eyes to so much for so long
    and I no longer can


    I once thought its over.. but Then I realized yes I can..

     
    At September 19, 2006 12:22 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Billie,

    "Usually done by the same people who cover their faces with their siddurim and shockel a lot. Do only girls do that? I guess guys have a tallit"

    I never got those kinds of people. They _really_ get into the whole idea. It's as if they really think they are praying for their lives. Even at my most credulous I don't think I ever felt that my life (or afterlife) was at stake.

    It was just another year of life behind me with another coming in front of me. I think I just looked at the time to improve upon myself for the coming year. In my mind, God didn't really judge us and sign away our fate on Yom Kippur for the most part, he just reviewed our progress and made a note in our files. ;-)

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:50 AM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >I never got those kinds of people. They _really_ get into the whole idea. It's as if they really think they are praying for their lives. Even at my most credulous I don't think I ever felt that my life (or afterlife) was at stake.

    I feel pitty for you, I really do.

    My year in Israel I left the shul crying.

     
    At September 19, 2006 2:12 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Irviner,

    You feel pity for me because I didn't feel like I was in mortal danger?

    Does anyone not see a problem with that?

     
    At September 19, 2006 2:26 AM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Irviner,

    You feel pity for me because I didn't feel like I was in mortal danger?

    Does anyone not see a problem with that?

    Did you know that the french like the taste of rotten cheese because its a unique experience?

    You can live life, or you can inject morphine into your system for 120 years, your choice.

     
    At September 19, 2006 2:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I would expand this to:

    I know the truth and it mocks me
    I know the truth and it shocks me
    I know the truth and it amazes me
    I know the truth and it dazzles me

    which means to me the sadness in leaving a very old tradition but the utter amazement at finding even bigger "miracles" in the real world such as the big bang, the selfish gene, quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle, theory of relativity, organ transplants, space travel etc, etc.

    Anyway it can be the Avinu Malkenu for the new FS (Frum Skeptic) nusach.

    PA

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:23 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    IC,

    Are you a masochist?

    I can live life perfectly well without injecting myself with morphine as well as not feeling as if my life is in danger.

    Do you sometimes walk around in bad neighborhoods at night for fun? Seems like an experience to be envious of, no?

     
    At September 19, 2006 7:23 AM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    > I never got those kinds of people. They _really_ get into the whole idea. It's as if they really think they are praying for their lives. Even at my most credulous I don't think I ever felt that my life (or afterlife) was at stake.

    Me neither. Sometimes I got a little emotional but never like that.

     
    At September 19, 2006 9:15 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 19, 2006 9:17 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Dear Bos,

    Do think being a goy is so great? I used to be a goy. It wasn't.

    Don't kid yourself. If you are unhappy where you are now, you would have more unhappy somewhere else.

     
    At September 19, 2006 10:16 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Orthprax, yes Thwack! I was once always at the point where I would give up college and learn full time. It would not necessarily have been so bad. I found the middle of the road great, until the truth mocked me & shocked me.

    > well, in the past I've done all the davening. This year I have a great excuse: my baby.

    That is wonderful. Enjoy these years of your life to the fullest.

    > But, I actually quite like the Yamim Noraim services, apart from how long they are. The nusach is nice and parts of it are beautifully poetic.

    Exactly.

    > I guess guys have a tallit

    And use it!


    > I once thought its over.. but Then I realized yes I can..

    Begreatful, the lyrics, in context, means I tried to close my eyes and ignore the truth, and I no longer can.


    IC & Orthprax, I used to feel that way too, that my life was in danger and my family and my lifes and even my friends lifes to a certain extent, were dependent on my davening. After all, we pray for longevity of our parents, right and Shlach Refuah Shleima Lcholai Amecha. I was taken, hook line & sinker.

    NOw, I still get emotional and teary eyed at certain points in the davening, Berosh Hashana Yikuseivon, etc. Not in the praying sense but with the blatant realization that I look around me and people do suffer tragedy and this one is gone from our midst and the other one is sick or saying Kaddish untimely or for a child. But I don't believe God is judging us and making decisions on RH and then YK, and then again on Hoshana Rabba and then last appeal on Zos Chanuka (my chassidish cousins will get that one).



    >

     
    At September 19, 2006 10:21 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >
    I know the truth and it mocks me
    I know the truth and it shocks me
    I know the truth and it amazes me
    I know the truth and it dazzles me


    PA, yes, that is the heart of the song and it is sung so beautifully. I glad you could appreciate it without the music. (I don't think I would).

    The amazing thing is that I changed only two or three words in this song from the original lyrics. When I heard this song recently I was literally crying because it was talking to me. A few years ago the truth shocks me and now it mocks me.

     
    At September 19, 2006 10:41 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 19, 2006 10:42 AM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    >Even at my most credulous I don't think I ever felt that my life (or afterlife) was at stake.

    Most (young) people take life for granted and assume that there will always be "tomorrow".
    I felt that way too, until I almost died in a car accident.
    Now I realize that it is only through Hashem's infinite kindness that I life to see another day. While I don't *thwack* and shokel (full disclosure: I didn't lose any sleep over missing slechos this morning), I do sincerily pray for a healthy new year.
    Even if you don't believe, life is too precious to be taken for granted.

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:11 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Do think being a goy is so great? I used to be a goy. It wasn't.


    JP, I don't doubt that, and if religion makes you happy, then fine. If I were you, I would stop my crusade and learn some more, work some more, enjoy your life and your cutie pie kids. IC, LY & JP, in my opinion get out of the blogworld you ain't winning any points, you haven't convinced anyone of anything and I don't think you will. (IC claims he has, but has not provided specifics).
    Get out before it's too late.

    But if you choose to stay, I appreciate your participation here.

    I am not necessarily unhappy now, and yes I was much happier before, because as my Masthead states "Ignorance is Bliss".

    But for me, that does not make religion true. I would not necessarily be any happier without the burden of mitsvos, true. But now that I know the truth, it's disconcerting. I also am afraid for the direction my children are spiralling towards; a more and more fundamental lifestyle. I would have been concerned even without my epiphany. It's to the point where no secular material, radios, newspaper are in their house. But then again, they appear happy. But just as truth can bring unhappines, so can poverty and I fear for Chareidi Judaism in general in a generation or two. It's probably a pendulum and will begin to swing back, but there will be lots of poor Korbanos alomg the way)

    So yes, I agree with you, happiness does not come from sleeping around and eating Big Macs. But Muslims are happy too. It doesn't prove a thing.

    Purpose and responsibility bring happiness. Thats why religion is so effective. Of course that does not mean religion is not true.

    I state again, as I did in my post, "come with me", the purpose of my blog is to explore the emotional side of skepticsm and you can feel free to chip in with the emotional side of belief.

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:28 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Dear Bos,

    Isn't a little odd that humans should need to believe in a fantasy in order to be happy? How did that evolve? Unless maybe it's not a fantasy.

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:29 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    And I do get a few fan letters. However I don't expect that promoting self control is going to be as popular promoting self indulgence. But that's part of being a rabbi. ;-)

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:35 AM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    >you haven't convinced anyone of anything and I don't think you will

    In a previous post you stated that if someone could prove to you TMS, you would become frum.
    I've thought about that and I realize that is impossible, because there is no proof that you would accept.
    If I showed you a video of the event (assuming they had video cameras at the time), you would claim it was a fake.
    If someone claimed to be an eye witness there, either he was VERY old or via time travel, you would claim he was a fake.
    These are far fetched, but can you imagine *anything* that could possible convince you?
    There are people that deny the holocaust. There are people that claim the manned moon landing was staged in a movie studio. There are people that claim the world is flat. All these people have convinced themselves that they know "the truth". The fact that there are concentration camp survivors, or airplanes that fly around the world, or Neil Armstrong's testimony, makes no difference.
    At some point, unless you have experienced the event yourself, you have to take someone's word for it.
    In the case of TMS, I take the word of my father, and his father, etc.

    >But now that I know the truth
    Why are you so convinced that you now know the truth? Who told you that? Because *you* thought of it? Or you read something that happens to appeal to your way of thinking?
    I am not trying to argue with you or convince you of anything here, as I've said, I don't think that is possible.
    I would only suggest that you try to take a unbiased look at your "truth".

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:58 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Personally, my blog is aimed at those who are undecided. People who are decided, one way or the other, generally have their reasons and will not be conviced by anything. It they would witness a miracle, that too could be a hallucination.

     
    At September 19, 2006 12:04 PM, Blogger Baal Devarim said...

    JP:

    "Isn't a little odd that humans should need to believe in a fantasy in order to be happy?"

    They don't. But even if a lot do, is that surprising? The less power we have to change the harsh reality, the more prone we are to believe in fantasies. It's very comforting. Thankfully, we are increasingly gaining more control over nature's ruthless ways -- no thanks to those who condemn the sciences. (And this fact nicely explains why fundamentalists tend to fear scientific innovation, too.)

    Moshe K.:

    "I would only suggest that you try to take a unbiased look at your "truth""

    Ohhh, what delicious irony. Surely even you can spot it?

     
    At September 19, 2006 12:45 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I think that research has demonstrated that religious people are more happy than irreligious on the average. If religion is a fantasy, why should that have evolved? Surely wasting time on nonsense doesn't improve anyone's odds of survival.

    On the other hand, I have an explanation.

     
    At September 19, 2006 12:59 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    JP,
    >Isn't a little odd that humans should need to believe in a fantasy in order to be happy? How did that evolve? Unless maybe it's not a fantasy.

    I don't know enough about evolution, but several comments.

    1) exactly why would that be odd? Maybe it's a defense mechanism so people don't go off the deep end 2) I hear talk of a God gene 3) I haven't publicly stated my personal views of God. 4) I think plenty of people are happy without God or religion.

    A problem exist for people who *had* the crutch of OJ and then must learn to live without one, even more so if our beliefs have not liberated us from OJ practice.....

    > However I don't expect that promoting self control is going to be as popular promoting self indulgence.

    On the contrary, lately I look around and I see people love self-flaggelation. I know a New Jerseyite who fasted on Sunday, because he visits Monsey every once in a while.

    As for the intent of your blog, I have no problem with that.

    MK,
    And that is exactly the problem with losing or having faith. It's Hamotsi M'chaveiro Uluv Haraiye. I had a rock solid set of beliefs which I was fine with.
    I was fine with the Mesora and ben achar ben explanation, until I felt it was not credible anymore.

    Once I'm on the other side of the fence, for me, it will take some significant event/evidence to prove TMS. I can't imagine what it would be. Praying to God for any form of yeshua and then being granted that yeshua is not proof.

    >But now that I know the truth
    Why are you so convinced that you now know the truth?

    Yes, I *believe* I know certain truths. So does everyone.

    >Or you read something that happens to appeal to your way of thinking?

    I read too many things that, indirectly, with no axe to grind, challenged my former beliefs in 6000 year old world, etc.

    > I would only suggest that you try to take a unbiased look at your "truth".

    Good suggestion.

    Baal Devarim, welcome.

    Fundamentalists love technical innovation but do not respect the bearers of that gift to humanity.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:03 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I think that research has demonstrated that religious people are more happy than irreligious on the average. If religion is a fantasy, why should that have evolved? Surely wasting time on nonsense doesn't improve anyone's odds of survival.


    I don't know of the research but even if true, but buddhists are happy too, probably happier than jews.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:09 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Could it be we need God because we have a divinely created soul?

    Just a wild guess.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:15 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    MK,


    "Most (young) people take life for granted and assume that there will always be "tomorrow"....Even if you don't believe, life is too precious to be taken for granted."

    Hey, believe you me, I don't take life for granted. I didn't go through any physically traumatic injuries to get to that understanding, but I study biology and medicine and I know how tentative life can be. Life in general is tenacious, but for individuals it is fleeting.

    I think I first came to the realization that I could die at any moment when while I was in elementary school my friend's father died from cancer.

    But in general, I didn't see many young kids dying so I figured God couldn't be judging all that harshly.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:15 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    "Just a wild guess."

    Exactly.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:16 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Could it be we need God because we have a divinely created soul?

    Absolutely. Could be, could be.

     
    At September 19, 2006 1:19 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    MK,

    "These are far fetched, but can you imagine *anything* that could possible convince you?"

    Is there anything that could convince you to take on, oh, how about Mormonism as the one true religion?

    That's pretty much on the same level of convincing that skeptics need to take on TMS.

     
    At September 19, 2006 2:40 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    A few million witnesses to the angel delivering the golden tablets to Joseph Smith would probably get me to book a flight to Salt Lake City and check it out.

    After watching "Big Love", it sounds like it's not the worst possible deal. ;-)

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:01 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    JP,

    What if the Mormons just had a book that said that millions of people saw that?

    And hey, millions of people say they saw Mary at Zeitoun.

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:14 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    If Smith had claimed millions of witnesses he would have had zero followers, because where are those witnesses? It would have obvious even to an imbecile that he was a liar.

    I've checked out that Zeitoun story. First of all, people saw some sort of image on top of a church. It never identified itself. The Talmud is filled with stories of angels and demons of which this may be been an example.

    Second of all, the Zeitoun story I think vastly increases the crediblity of the Sinai tradition. We know that the Zeitoun apparartion, whatever it was, had no influence on Egyptian society, whereas the Sinai incident was an overwhelming turning point in Jewish history, if not world history. It must have been far more impressive and electrifying than the Zeitoun apparation.

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:28 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    >It they would witness a miracle, that too could be a hallucination.
    Excellent point. If we saw Kreyas Yamsuf today, we would attribute it to El Nino. Which is why you would never convice me to become Mormon/Buddist/anyotherist. But I could easily be convinced to reject all religions, because it is human nature to want to be free of any "ull" (yoke) whether to man or G-d.

    >I didn't see many young kids dying so I figured God couldn't be judging all that harshly
    I pray that He continues to do so...

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:29 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    BHB,

    Is there a AA for blog addicts?
    LOL

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:50 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    JP, I don't know if I could afford those blue pills needed for a Big Love lifestyle.

    MK, the problem is not so much addiction, it's the distraction from other more important things. We'll probably tire of it after a while.

     
    At September 19, 2006 3:54 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    http://lusternia.ire-community.com/index.php?showtopic=1831&st=480&p=88186&#entry88186

    Don't know if you will be able to read that.

    But thats my "specifics"

     
    At September 19, 2006 4:08 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    JP,

    "If Smith had claimed millions of witnesses he would have had zero followers, because where are those witnesses? It would have obvious even to an imbecile that he was a liar."

    I would have thought that his crazy stories would have been obvious enough for people.

    Anyway, I don't really want to rehash the Kuzari debate. Been there, done that.

    "It never identified itself."

    So? People see what they want to see.

    "It must have been far more impressive and electrifying than the Zeitoun apparation."

    Or maybe it just really impressed the ancients when modern standards wouldn't be so generous.

    Or maybe it was just a story without describing any specific event.

     
    At September 19, 2006 4:19 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Smith's stories were no different than Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha, which billions of people have no trouble accepting. Moderns and ancients all fall for the same stuff. Torah is unique.

    It's kind of a shame, really. I wouldn't mind having 3 pretty wives like that guy in the new TV show. Why can't a fun religion like that have a mass revelation? ;-)

     
    At September 19, 2006 4:20 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC, you mean VVART? You convinced him to become a Noahide? Did you follow thru and see if he still feels that way? 2) If understand correctly, it's a book that may change someone's mind, not debating. 3) He went from a Christian to a Noahide. That's an easy one think about it. He basically had a set of beliefs, Christianity includes Noahide and he simply droppped the Christianity part. It's like a Chassid become a MO. Or an MO becoming Conservative. (I think).

     
    At September 19, 2006 4:25 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Smith's stories were no different than Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha, which billions of people have no trouble accepting. Moderns and ancients all fall for the same stuff.

    Just shows you how gullible humans are. So now you're going to say, ok I'm being misled by Science. Well the way I see it is the burden of Proof should be on religion. Science asks you nothing in return, it has no agenda. Does science really ask you to give up God? It remains mute on that. Religion has an agenda.

     
    At September 19, 2006 4:35 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I think science does much more than that - the wonders of the universe demonstrate ever more strongly that there is a god. The similarities between different species implies one god, not many. The cooperation of natural laws to make life possible also proves God's unity. If scientists did not have an overwhelming preconceived bias, they would all be far more religious than I am.

    Pseudoscience, like evolution, scientific naturalism, determinism, Freudian psychoanalysis, scientific Communism, etc. make false claims against religion.

     
    At September 19, 2006 5:28 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >IC, you mean VVART? You convinced him to become a Noahide?

    Its what he told me. I was surprised and thought he was joking, then he sent me a private message that said he was not joking. You can read the whole discussion. Its actually quite interesting.

    About Freud.. I've been learning and I found something interesting. Freud and Kabbalah say the same thing. However, there is a main difference in the conclusions they come to.

    Freud sees whats in the subconcious and decides it should become conscious. Kabbalah sees the subconcious and sees that its impoprtant that it REMAIN the sub conscious.

     
    At September 19, 2006 5:28 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Science asks you nothing in return, it has no agenda. Does science really ask you to give up God? It remains mute on that. Religion has an agenda.

    Really?

    I find this statement to be wholly ignorant.

     
    At September 19, 2006 5:39 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Really?

    I find this statement to be wholly ignorant.


    Which part of my statement?

     
    At September 19, 2006 5:49 PM, Anonymous Jewishskeptic said...

    >"It's to the point where no secular material, radios, newspaper are in their house."

    Really,BH? I can hardly believe that such people exist anymore.
    Are you exaggerating for effect.
    In such an anvornment how did you bichlal learn the tumeshe loshon of English?
    I once knew a guy who wore his watch on the right wrist.Because wearing it on the left would be 'b'chukos hagoyim'! That was many years ago. On the rare occasions when I visit meah sh'arim
    I see an odd chareidi running with his eyes covered with his hand,lest God forbid,his eyes fall upon a woman.
    If you want to be really strict in following the Shulchan Oruch & other s'forim k'doshim then among other things you should never:
    1.walk between 2 woman.
    2.walk beteen 2 goyim.
    3.never walk behind a woman,even if its your our own wife( the talmud learns this from Monoach,Samson's father.Its written "vayelch Manoach acharei ishto",mikan sheshoteh hayah).
    4.avoid looking at goyishe faces.because goyim are tome & they will be metame your heilige yiddishe eye!
    This is taken from the SA or famous kabbalistic works.
    Of course there is much more.
    Tell me BH,do you know people like that?

    I think,BH,you are mistaken when you think that the so called religious bloggers do it l'shem mitsvas to be machzir b'tshuvah.
    Yes,they do it l'shem mitsvah.
    They are talmidei chachomim & they know the gemoro that says that every city must have 10 batlonim,otherwise it's not called a city.Being very patriotic,&wanting their city to be on the map,they are mekayem the mitsvah l'mehadrin...

     
    At September 19, 2006 5:54 PM, Blogger JewishBiFemme said...

    Lyrics slightly modifed by yours truly to fit the situation.

    Perfect!

    It's like you took the word out of me! So very true!!!

    At least I aint the only one out there feeling like that!!!

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:06 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Which part of my statement?

    Wholly here ment both parts.

    Science has an agenda as much as religion has an agenda... meaning neither have an agenda like you suggest.

    If you want to see organizations that have agendas, you can look back in history and see what it really looks like. Or you can look at Thailand right now, or Sudan/darfur, or Etheopia, or Budapest, or the fire bombed churches in Gaza...

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:07 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    JS,
    > Really,BH? I can hardly believe that such people exist anymore.

    I kid you not. You never been to Lakewood?

    > Are you exaggerating for effect.
    No.

    > In such an anvornment how did you bichlal learn the tumeshe loshon of English?

    Why not? kids are young, they will get a typical Lakewood education thru High school (I hope)

    > I once knew a guy who wore his watch on the right wrist.Because wearing it on the left would be 'b'chukos hagoyim'! That was many years ago.

    Thats a new one.

    > On the rare occasions when I visit meah sh'arim
    I see an odd chareidi running with his eyes covered with his hand,lest God forbid,his eyes fall upon a woman.

    I went to yeshiva with someone who took his glasses off in the streets.

    > If you want to be really strict in following the Shulchan Oruch & other s'forim k'doshim then among other things you should never:
    1.walk between 2 woman.

    That was me. Yep, I used to hold my sleeve if I had to go thru them. But that goes way back when I first came out of Yeshiva.

    I'm certain my kids follow that, the males that is.

    > 2.walk beteen 2 goyim.

    Ibid.

    3.never walk behind a woman,even if its your our own wife( the talmud learns this from Monoach,Samson's father.Its written "vayelch Manoach acharei ishto",mikan sheshoteh hayah).

    Forgive me Father for I have sinned. ;)

    4.avoid looking at goyishe faces.because goyim are tome & they will be metame your heilige yiddishe eye!

    ibid


    This is taken from the SA or famous kabbalistic works.
    Of course there is much more.
    Tell me BH,do you know people like that? Soitenly!

    > I think,BH,you are mistaken when you think that the so called religious bloggers do it l'shem mitsvas to be machzir b'tshuvah.

    That is THEIR claim. Psychology may tell us different, but I agree with JP that IS a pseudo-science.


    Yes,they do it l'shem mitsvah.
    They are talmidei chachomim & they know the gemoro that says that every city must have 10 batlonim,otherwise it's not called a city.Being very patriotic,&wanting their city to be on the map,they are mekayem the mitsvah l'mehadrin...

    LOL.





    ALL, Have a happy and healthy new year, if I don't before then.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:08 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >hey are talmidei chachomim & they know the gemoro that says that every city must have 10 batlonim,otherwise it's not called a city.Being very patriotic,&wanting their city to be on the map,they are mekayem the mitsvah l'mehadrin...

    Heh, never thought about that.

    Its not patrotism, its the fact that I know its possible for Jews of different hashkafas to live together and not compromise thier lifestyle and I want all Jews to be able to know about that and experience it.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:10 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    JBF,

    > It's like you took the word out of me! So very true!!!

    > At least I aint the only one out there feeling like that!!!


    If you want to find yourself crying like a baby, listen to the real Mcoy, I only changed like three words from the original Lyrics. But you need to hear the original Bway cast, not the Elton John version.

    but then again, I thought you're not a skeptic, what gives?

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:14 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC,

    > Science has an agenda as much as religion has an agenda... meaning neither have an agenda like you suggest.

    Please. religion wants you to modify your behaviour. In what way does science do that, other than try to get you to stop smoking?

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:21 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Embrace your libido
    Protect the environment
    don't buy certain products
    Fund scientific research
    Send your children to University
    Don't have children working, only learning.
    Don't follow your religious leaders
    Ignore your feelings of spirituality
    Only use logic, ignore your emotions.
    Pay me to be a scientists for the sake of being a scientist.

    Everything that Science demands of people religion demands the same. The motivations are for the same reasons. Everyone is human, everyone who has information wants other people to know/agree with that information.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:22 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Also, I deny that religion "wants you to modify your behavior"... Religion suggest that they know what type of behvior will give you the best possible life. Both now and later. Just like science does.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:23 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    If you need a modern example of a society that has desires for certain behavior, I suggest you look at China.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:30 PM, Blogger JewishBiFemme said...

    Sorry I dont listen to goysha music LMAO!!! Yeah right!!!

    Nah I aint no skeptic but I sure am a sinner!! Not in my book but in the chasidishe velt!!!

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:34 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Embrace your libido

    Is that an order?

    OH! you mean science says. Let me think about all that. You may have a point about some of these.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:36 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Also, I deny that religion "wants you to modify your behavior"... Religion suggest that they know what type of behvior will give you the best possible life.

    Suggests? or commands.

    I don't know what you mean by China.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:40 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:48 PM, Blogger JewishBiFemme said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:52 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >
    Embrace your libido
    Protect the environment
    don't buy certain products
    Fund scientific research
    Send your children to University
    Don't have children working, only learning.
    Don't follow your religious leaders
    Ignore your feelings of spirituality
    Only use logic, ignore your emotions.
    Pay me to be a scientists for the sake of being a scientist.


    IC, I think you mis-characterize the scientific agenda. Forgetting about the financial aspects, you are putting the Carts before the horses. Science does not push Libido; it tolerates it based on it's findings. It does not come with a pre-concieved notion about the environment. People debate about global warning within science. Rachel Carson started environmental issues, was she a scientist? Don't buy products? Sure if its proven to be dangerous.

    You're really looking to nitpick.

    Money? I agree with you on that one.

     
    At September 19, 2006 6:58 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 19, 2006 10:11 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    > That is wonderful. Enjoy these years of your life to the fullest.

    I am!!! (Apart from working out how to bring her up. Tricky. But I think she'll be able to work things out for herself in time).

    > I think that research has demonstrated that religious people are more happy than irreligious on the average. If religion is a fantasy, why should that have evolved? Surely wasting time on nonsense doesn't improve anyone's odds of survival.

    Firstly, this is very nice, but it's not a proof for TMS. Believing in fairies might make you happy, but that doesn't make them exist.

    Secondly, there are several reasons why religion has evolved.

    1. Religion gives us a sense of control over the universe. (Monotheism in particular gives us the idea of a unified universe, which has driven modern science to search for "the theory of everything" [as Slifkin states].)
    2. It gives us an explanation for the random things that happen in life (opium of the masses).
    3. Religion keeps social order by imposing its laws.
    4. Religion brings a sense of community.

    The last two in particular have obvious evolutionary benefits. My answers to them:
    1. Science can now be used to explain the universe.
    2. I can deal with the randomness. It's harder than thinking that everything is good and from God, but the things I've seen in my life have negated any belief I had in hashgacha pratit.
    3 & 4 can be achieved with orthopraxis, or belonging to any society with a legal system. They aren't dependent on me believing in TMS.

    > Pseudoscience, like evolution, scientific naturalism, determinism, Freudian psychoanalysis, scientific Communism, etc. make false claims against religion.

    I don't know who taught you what science is, but you sure have a warped idea of it. Science today involves the experimental method. Apart from Freud and communism, all of these are far more verifiable than the pathetic excuse for science ID is. Do you really think that ID is the real deal and evolution is just made up? There's alot of evidence stacked against you. I think you just have an agenda and would rather grab onto the rubbish that fundamentalist Christians spew than actually study science properly.

    It just goes to show that fundamentalists of different religions have more in common with each other than with the more rational members of their own religions.

    > Personally, my blog is aimed at those who are undecided. People who are decided, one way or the other, generally have their reasons and will not be conviced by anything

    I don't see anyone undecided around here.

     
    At September 19, 2006 11:09 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I don't see anyone undecided around here.


    BJ, i think there are plenty of them. They lurk but rarely comment.

     
    At September 20, 2006 4:58 AM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Well, you may be right. But I don't think fundamentalism is going to sway them. It certainly pushes me closer to skepticism.

     
    At September 20, 2006 8:59 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Does "fundamentalism" mean "anyone more religious than I am"?

     
    At September 20, 2006 11:08 AM, Blogger B. Spinoza said...

    >Does "fundamentalism" mean "anyone more religious than I am"?

    no. A fundamentalist usually means someone who who takes the Bible literally and thinks anyone who doesn't do the same is not religious. Also a fundamentalist is someone who can't conceive that there is more than one proper spiritual path.

     
    At September 20, 2006 11:57 AM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >no. A fundamentalist usually means someone who who takes the Bible literally and thinks anyone who doesn't do the same is not religious. Also a fundamentalist is someone who can't conceive that there is more than one proper spiritual path.

    I only agree with this line:
    "a fundamentalist is someone who can't conceive that there is more than one proper [spiritual] path." (I'd take out the word spiritual)

    There is nothing wrong with taking the Torah literally. Fundamentalism is only saying that its your way or the highway. There are many secular fundamentalists, many Chabad fundamentalists (who aren't even close to taking the torah litereally), many Scientists fundamentalists.

     
    At September 20, 2006 11:59 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > A fundamentalist usually means someone who who takes the Bible literally .

    Also, a Jewish fundamentalist is someone who thinks Judaism never changed and never will change. In reality, it's always changing.

     
    At September 20, 2006 12:16 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Jewish Reform Fundamentalists exist also. They think anyone who wears a black hat should be shunned out of the community.

    Anyone who believes in the divinity of the Torah is not a person worth protecting, etc.

    I have met such people. Fundamentalism is not regulate to just the people you dissagree with. It applies to everyone who thinks there is only one way of doing things.

     
    At September 20, 2006 1:00 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I think Judaism changes. Look at the addition of Purim for example. And I think the Bible is not literal. Take "eye for an eye" for example. So no Orthodox Jew is a fundimentalist.

    Maybe Karaites are, or Samaritans, if any are actually left.

     
    At September 20, 2006 1:28 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > And I think the Bible is not literal. Take "eye for an eye" for example. So no Orthodox Jew is a fundimentalist.

    No, read what I said carefully, they think it never changed. The Rabonim claim it always meant money, because of halacha L'moshe M'sinai. But they don'w (as you won't) say that it changed. Yes, they can add things, such as purim, etc.

     
    At September 20, 2006 1:34 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    JP,

    >I think Judaism changes. Look at the addition of Purim for example
    If by Judaism you mean Torah, Torah *never* changes. Purim *is* in the Torah as the Gemora states "haster aster as ponei" is a "hint" at Purim. Torah is Hashem's word, how can anyone but He change it?

    >And I think the Bible is not literal. Take "eye for an eye" for example

    True, the Toarh can not always be taken literally. When Moses received the Torah at Sinai, he was also given the "tools" to understand it. These were then passed along thru the generations and became what we now refer to as the Talmud.

    IC,
    >Fundamentalism is not regulate to just the people you dissagree with. It applies to everyone who thinks there is only one way of doing things.
    I believe there *is* only one way. If it's in the Shulchan Orach, then that's the correct way of doing things. Does that make me a fundamentalist? Who cares? Why is that a bad thing? I'm a conservative, to many people that too is a bad thing. I'm also a Jew, and trust me, to many that is the worst thing one can be.

     
    At September 20, 2006 1:44 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 20, 2006 2:08 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    Jewishskeptic,

    >If you want to be really strict in following the Shulchan Oruch & other s'forim k'doshim then among other things you should never:

    So we're now ridiculing people because they want to follow the Shulchan Oruch?!?

    I don't keep any of the 1-4 halachos you mention, because my job, etc. makes it impossible (and I admit I like looking at pretty girls ;-)), but if someone sincerly wants to follow halacha, why is that a bad thing?

    BHB,

    Have a very, very happy, healty, and prosperous new year!

     
    At September 20, 2006 2:17 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >I believe there *is* only one way. If it's in the Shulchan Orach, then that's the correct way of doing things. Does that make me a fundamentalist?

    Yes, that is being a fundamentalist.

    you do know that the Shulchan Oruch while being widely accepted, is also NOT widely followed by everybody.

    Just take Ashkanaz and Sephardim differences. If everything the Shulchan Aruch said was done, then we wouldn't need poskim. And poskim wouldn't need to know more than one book.

     
    At September 20, 2006 4:33 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    IC,
    I use the term "Shulchan Orach" loosely to refer to accepted halacha, be that Ashkanaz/Sephard/etc.

     
    At September 20, 2006 4:33 PM, Blogger Moshe Kappoya said...

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
    At September 20, 2006 4:58 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Still, using the term loosly, there is more than one way to do things.

    There are not an infinite number of ways, but there is clearly more than 1.

     
    At September 20, 2006 7:57 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Wow, I agree with IC on the definition of fundamentalism. So he must be right. ;)

    Actually, I do think Jewish fundamentalism involves believing that the Torah (oral and written) is from God. But that's more the basis for the fundamentalism. The actual fundamentalism is their attitude to the text.

    By the way, there still are Karaite and Samaritans. Around 500 Karaites and 3000 Samaritans. They're very interesting, like Twilight Zone Jews. I don't know much about the modern Karaites but IMO the Samaritans have just as much of a claim on the truth as Jews.

     
    At September 20, 2006 8:44 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    BJ,

    I actually know a Karaite. His community left Egypt in the 60s/70s and moved to California.

    He tells me that there is one Karaite synogogue in California but that if he'd go he'd be the youngest person there.

    He went to a Reform school as a kid so his Judaic knowledge leaves much to be desired.

     
    At September 20, 2006 8:45 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Also, btw, there's more like 15,000 Karaites worlwide. Most live in Israel.

     
    At September 20, 2006 9:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >The actual fundamentalism is their attitude to the text.

    This from someone whose knowledge of Tenach comes from watching a
    cartoon...

     
    At September 21, 2006 8:08 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >This from someone whose knowledge of Tenach comes from watching a

    Anon, and your knowledge of Bidhism, which you do not embrace, comes from where?

     
    At September 21, 2006 8:08 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Sorry, Budhism

     
    At September 21, 2006 11:26 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I'm not sure there are any observant Karaites or Samaritans remaining. Perhaps a few.

    I'm not too impressed by their claims because, as far as anyone knows, they have always been a small minority compared to rabbinical Jews. I would assume that the majority Biblical interpretation is correct.

     
    At September 21, 2006 11:41 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I'm not too impressed by their claims because, as far as anyone knows, they have always been a small minority compared to rabbinical Jews. I would assume that the majority Biblical interpretation is correct.


    I'm not too impressed by their (The Jews) claims because as far as anyone knows, they have always been a small minority compared to the Christians. I would assume the majority Biblical interpretation is correct.

    You can read some DSS literature for some insight into this.

     
    At September 21, 2006 11:41 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    DSS = Dead Sea Scrolls.

     
    At September 21, 2006 1:26 PM, Blogger Avi said...

    I'm not too impressed by their claims because, as far as anyone knows, they have always been a small minority compared to rabbinical Jews. I would assume that the majority Biblical interpretation is correct.

    BHB. We are very good at disenfranchising other Jews. Anyone who is not like us, is not considered a Jew. Hence the Karaites to the rabbis were not Jewish. To hell with the rabbis, some of the Karaites were more stringent in keeping then the Charedim are, just that they had different ways of doing it which we in our infinite wisdom, know is wrong. As much as God told our rabbis how the halacha is supposed to be, he also told the Karaites.

     
    At September 21, 2006 3:54 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Avi, welcome to the blog and yes, I agree, no one is REALY jewish unless they're just like us.

    BTW, I agree with your own First (and why) last post about Charity. But but I make exceptions for organizations such as MADD.

     
    At September 21, 2006 6:58 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    > Also, btw, there's more like 15,000 Karaites worlwide. Most live in Israel.

    OK, 500 x 3. ;)

    > This from someone whose knowledge of Tenach comes from watching a cartoon

    No, my knowledge of Tanach comes from my Chabad day school and yeshiva education. Sorry if you can't understand the point I was making. I didn't realize it was so complicated.

    > I'm not sure there are any observant Karaites or Samaritans remaining. Perhaps a few.

    Between Ortho and I, I believe you have the correct numbers.

    BHB, I agree with you.

     
    At September 21, 2006 8:35 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >BHB, I agree with you.

    About what?

     
    At September 22, 2006 12:12 AM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    >I'm not too impressed by their (The Jews) claims because as far as anyone knows, they have always been a small minority compared to the Christians. I would assume the majority Biblical interpretation is correct.

    About this statement.

     
    At September 22, 2006 6:10 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    BJ,

    "OK, 500 x 3. ;)"

    500 x 30. You left out a zero.

     
    At September 24, 2006 11:23 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Did I ever mention I don't do math?

     

    Post a Comment

    Links to this post:

    Create a Link

    << Home