Kefira on JM in the AM? - Updated.
I noticed on Hirhurim that R' N. Slifkin was appearing on the popular JM in the AM show.
I'm surprised more was not made of this. Maybe everyone's on vacation.
JM in the AM has a very wide range of listeners, including chasidim
and Yeshivish and little children. I wonder what was going thru these
peoples minds when they heard about Evolution and Ancient Earth being discussed in so an open fashion.
If he planned it, Nachum Siegel was brilliant in his approach.
In the beginning he started simply with the Animal aspect and slowly
discussed the science and ban.
Anyhow, the way I see it this stuff is inoculation to JO. By putting
it on the table in a casual manner, I think it prevents people from
considering it to antithetical to OJ, unless of course they dig deeper.
The banners did themselves a huge dis-service.
One surprise was when Slifkin said the best way to approach Bereishis and Shemos is allegorical. You might as well just called it Moses's Fables
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* Correction.
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I must retract something. On re-listening, I only heard him refer to Shashes Yemei B'reishis as being Metaphorical and Allegorical. He did not refer to Bereishis and Shemos that way. He did suggest that the Miracles in Shemos were natural events pre-scheduled by God. This was backed up by references to Rishonim .
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* Updated
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A separate point of interest, is that they had no call in segment
with him.
Anyhow, hats off to Nachum and the Jewish Press for broaching these topics.
BTW, Where is everyone? The blogs are extremely quiet, unless the party just moved somewhere and no-one invited me. I hope everyone's enjoying their vacation, while I'm stuck blogging, oops I mean working.
42 Comments:
However, since most people never really ask that question in the first place, its really not a problem.
Most frum people never learned to ask questions. They accept the torah at face value. Also dont forget that to many of us on the blogs this is already " Old hat" Dont forget that we read the " gadol Hador" after that nothing schocks us.
IC, I'm not so much shocked at what he says but the forum. All of these "rationalizations" don't sit well with Chariedim, UOJ and Chasidim. I think JM in the AM listenership includes these segments of Frumkeit.
Avi,
> Also dont forget that to many of us on the blogs this is already " Old hat" Dont forget that we read the " gadol Hador" after that nothing schocks us.
yes, but many called him a koifer for that.
> People keep saying that, but I keep not believing it.
Well, that's how I grew up. and I wasn't even full chareidi. Ask Lakewood Yid.
Irviner, Irrelevant. Rashi's rule is that Ain Mikro Yotsa Miday Peshutu. A posuk's plain translation is the truth. Both, Avrohom's father's name and actions are in the Torah. But to say that each animal was not created independantly (as Evolution states) or that the Krias Yam Suf might have been a tsunami (as I heard this morning on JM) is heresy to the Chareidim, and to me too. I Emailed Lakewood Yid and asked him to comment here to see if I'm misrepresenting him.
MK,
> I can tell you without a doubt that to believe in Evolution is kefera in it's plainest form.
Well I agree that's the typical Chareidi take on things, but not necessarilly all. But think about it before you paint yourself into a corner. What if Evolution would suddenly be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. For example and I know this is an abusurd example. Let's say we suddenly find fish with hands that are born from regular fish. I know it's a poor example, But humour me. What then? Will you give up OJ? I hope not. You will rework the dogma and say evolution is NOT incompatible with OJ. Just like when the Church admitted the world was round or Spherical.
So don't paint yourself into a corner. BTW, there are probably 100's of thousands or religious jews(I don't mean like me, but jews who honestly and sincerely believe in Torah M'sinai) who believe in Evolution.
So be careful of creating what's known as a "God of the Gaps".
Darn it, I would have wanted to hear that broadcast.... Hey I think he keeps audio of old shows that you can listen to online....
I've just finished listening to the program. Previously, I had read only two books by Slifkin, not among the banned works, and I wasn't terribly impressed. While I found him a neat sort of guy that I wouldn't mind meeting (being an animal lover myself, I always get along with the sorts of people who crawl with animals), his writing didn't stand out for me. People have made him sound like the Galileo of the Torah world, but I saw him more as a sacrificial lamb to advance the kannoim's sinister agenda.
After listening to the program, I've now become an instant fan. The guy's great. Sure, not remotely great enough to merit the level of controversy which his books caused, but a fascinating guy full of interesting ideas.
frumgirl,
You can hear it. Go here:
http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/20216
My impression is that JM in the AM is a Modern Orthodox very Zionist program.
> Kabbalistic explanation of Chumash and Nach...., suggest that the theory of evolution is likely to be accurate. The only thing in the Chumash that I know of, that should not be possible to explain through "nature
IC, I think Moshe Kappoya has branded your opinions as heretical. And MK does not have his head in the sand, check his book meme.
See, thats part of the problem. The flagship of Judaic scholarship, the individuals that devote themselves to Torah Study more than any other group, is not with the program.
> People have made him sound like the Galileo of the Torah world.
I never read any of his books and yesterday was the time I heard him. I never got the impression that he had espoused any of his own theories. He himself said he is more like a Yalkut.
He was just trying to make sense of it all and ended up saying the emperor is naked (at least to Charedim).
BTW, are you sure you're not just taken with his accent? Anyhow, he is very likable.
> My impression is that JM in the AM is a Modern Orthodox very Zionist program.
Anony, you are correct. But it has VERY broad appeal. He plays the current Jewish and even music by Chassidim singing in the Williamsburg Havvarah. They have Rabbi David Goldwasser with morning Chizzuk. It's an excellent well rounded program. Listen to the callers during fundraising and other times. You may be shocked.
It is an excellent example of many segments of Juadaism coming together.
I was just pleasantly surprized that he did slifkin. Who's next GH?
MK, see this. It's a recap of Slifkin's speech to some college.
http://curiousjew.blogspot.com/2006/08/heresy-of-intelligent-design-by-rabbi.html
MK, see this. It's a recap of Slifkin's speech to some college.
http://curiousjew.blogspot.com/2006/08/heresy-of-intelligent-design-by-rabbi.html
> I think you have a very narrow definition of "the program" that goes against what Chazal wrote.
IC, I don't. Maybe the Charedim do. I understand exactly where you're coming from. And I understand exactly where the Chareidim are coming from. But don't think you pass mustard with Charedim.
BTW, are you sure you're not just taken with his accent?
I liked some of the things he said. He spoke as someone who had given considerable thought to the different sides of this issue.
My seventh-grade science teacher was from Manchester. So was Davy Jones (of the Monkees). I thought I was familiar with the accent. But Slifkin sounds a bit odd. Maybe its his nasality. I thought I detected a slight speech deficit, the kind that makes you pronounce "r" as "w." But then maybe I'm just not as familiar with regional British accents as I thought I was.
However, Charedim don't exist on the internet. (by definition)
Sure they do. They're only prohibited from Internet use in the home, and even that is a generalization. How is it that there are many self-identifying Chareidi websites, like Yated Ne'eman? And do you consider Chasidim to be Chareidim? There are loads of Chasidic websites.
The flagship of Judaic scholarship, the individuals that devote themselves to Torah Study more than any other group, is not with the program.
See, but that's the crux of the matter: people who subscribe to the Torah U'Madda philosophy do not believe that learning Torah in isolation from anything else is sufficient. Disputes of this sort over the proper approach to Torah are ancient.
IC, I don't think you're wrong. Jewish opinions are not clear cut, and there is strong precedence for wiggle room in Jewish Thinking. But Charedim and Chassidim, hereafter called CO, are fundamentalists and are not believers in Evolution, etc. I'm not dis-agreeing with you about what JO *might* mean. But (most) mainstream CO, and there seems to be more of them than other groups, do dis-agree with you. You can't have it both ways. You think the only difference between you and CO is they learn more? No there are fundamental Hashkafa differences, secular education, entertainment and Theology, Israel, the list is long.
You want to chalk it to what CO needs? Fine. But that's their belief. Evolution is *out* for Boro Park, Flatbush, Williamsburg, Monsey, Jerusalem, Bnai Brak, Golders Green, etc. I don't know about Fairfax.
Just ask them. MK could not have been more explicit. "I can tell you without a doubt that to believe in Evolution is kefera in it's plainest form. To equate Shemote and Bereshit with Aesops fables cv"s is kefira as well"
You want to change his definition of Evolution? Feel free.
> See, but that's the crux of the matter: people who subscribe to the Torah U'Madda philosophy do not believe that learning Torah in isolation from anything else is sufficient. Disputes of this sort over the proper approach to Torah are ancient.
Kylopod. True, only time will tell who will pass the mantle down to future generations, but I suspect it will be the Chareidim. MO lives close to the edge, I think it's easier to fall off.
On the other hand, someone like me, who grows up with a basic Chareidi type atmosphere and sees that what I've been taught is wrong, well that's a different slippery slope.
CO is aware if this and is trying to segregate themselves from as much Secular learning and culture as possible. If they didn't do that, they would hemmorage (typo?)
> Chasidism by definition accepts Kabbalah
It's a different context. They mean kabbala as in Red Bendel and don't sleep on R"H after Mussaf. You'd get escorted out of Williamsburg with your philosophies. All above is only my opinion.
> Now with evolution, you can't deny evolution. Because when you take your anti-biotics but forget to take all of them, you get more sic and your anti-biotics don't work anymore.
That's because you know and care about the science behind it. To them it's medicine and your body got used to it abd now needs it. Or something like that. They aren't aware of the underlying mechanism. Chasidim have only the equivalent of a 4th grade education.
Look, read Rejoice O Youth my R' Avigod Miller. It will open your eyes. Thats the kind of stuff I grew up with.
> Out or useless, irrelevant, not something worth discussing?..
*out* as in outside the realm of Torah True Thought. Now there are exceptions, like Slifkin and many others like him. But he's been barred. Why do you think that is?
IC, CO knows that evolution is a dangerous concept(for them), because they've been fighting it for so long. They can't just change minds mid-straem without causing lots of crisis of faith.
Read the Jewish Observer and other articles like that. For CO to hear talk of Evolution as fact is very disconcerting.
I hope that Moshe Kappoya did not freak out from some of this stuff just now. His Blog is gone.
Moshe?
IC, Chabad is in a class of it's own. When I say Chassidim I mean , the 100,000's of Satmar, Belz, Puppa, etc. I did not say Crown Heights. I don't know what Chabbad says, other than the Rebbe might still be the Moshiach ;) (I had great respect for Chabad and their outreach, until the Rebbe died, that is).
IC, Have you ever discussed Evolution with someone from New Square? Or naturalistic Shemos? I suspect you won't get the answer you suspect. But I don't know for sure.
IC, this chat with you is enlightening. It's almost as if thre are two different religions with different dogmas that just share religious practice.
Anyhow, I must run and get some work done. I hope we'll chat again.
IC, the commonly accepted definition of Chareidi (or "ultra-Orthodox") includes Chasidim, though Chasidim are less likely to self-identify by the label, because they already have a label.
BH, True, only time will tell who will pass the mantle down to future generations, but I suspect it will be the Chareidim. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The Chareidim aren't going to disappear anytime soon, but then neither is the Torah U'Madda crowd. There will always be people in need of both approaches.
The common definition of Cheredi includes anybody who wears a "uniform" and grows a beard/payot.
No, that's the common image, but the concept can be defined more subtly. See the Wikipedia entry for a good example of how this can be done. The philosophical and theological differences between Hasidim and Misnagdim may obscure that the groups are similar in both practice and attitude toward the outside world.
And some people will be Chareidim during Shabbat and Yomtov and Torah U'Madda during the weak.
Sounds like the typical Baltimore Yid.
On an entirely separate note, I just posted to my blog my thoughts on Robert Pennock's book I discussed earlier.
>One surprise was when Slifkin said the best way to approach Bereishis and Shemos is allegorical. You might as well just called it Moses's Fables
Pass this quote on to any Charedi Rosh Yeshiva. Their response will be the same:
"Only someone who believes his ancestor was a monkey would suggest something like that."
I would warn you though, that some RY's might respond a bit more harshly, depending on who is asking the question.
In Chardei world, Breishis - Shemos is absolute Emes.
A snake spoke.
The moon used to be as big as the sun....
Creation was in 6 days. 6 x 24 hours.
Adam was the first human ever. God created him from a mound of earth. His wife was created from his 'rib'.
etc etc etc
There's no questions in Charedi world. This is what happened. No one gives a damn what Darwin the Apikoris has to say. "Its just another Nisayon", and we'll survive this one as well.
If indeed Slikin said the above quote you attribute to him, I would ban him too. Chas Vesholom my kids or any charedi should read such Kefirah.
Breishis Shemos allegorical????
Lakewood Yid
must retract something. On re-listening, I only heard him refer to Shashes Yemei B'reishis as being Metaphorical and Allegorical. He did not refer to Bereishis and Shemos that way. He did suggest that the Miracles in Shemos were natural events pre-scheduled by God. This was backed up by references to Rishonim
> The philosophical and theological differences between Hasidim and Misnagdim may obscure that the groups are similar in both practice and attitude toward the outside world.
KP, Very true, Misnagdim/Chareidim and Chasidim are moving closer together. Chasidim started emphasizing Torah more and Misnagdim are starting to withdraw and also starting to treat the "gedolim" like Chassidic "Rebbe's"
IC, well you see it straight from the Keyboard of LY. I don't want to generalize, but I think LY would call you a Koifer as well;
Assuming that was Lakewood Yid. BTW, I emailed him with my correction and clarification of Slifkin's words.
Moshe K, can you email me at BAALHABOS@GMAIL.COM
Thanks.
>Are you ok saying that that litterally happened, on earth in the world we live in, with the physics we know?
Yes.
Daganev, I must say that when I first saw your comments on other blogs, I thought you were a quack. I still don't go for all that Kaballa stuff where anything can mean anything. Nevertheless, some of the things you say do stop and make me give slight pause. Either way, LY still consdiders that what you spout about Ancient Earth and Evolution is Kefira. You dismiss his position as stemming of ignorance and a lack of understanding. Unless you take the position of GOsse, the two of you are irreconcileable. I think.
The interesting thing is that neither of you say Eilu V'eilu. You are both convinced of the truth of your positions.
So which is. Which one of you is correct? You both profess fealty to OJ and religious dogam of the past.
Anyhow, I'll try to address the remaining issues sometime today, in a continuation in the comments of Private Orthoprax at home, where we left off.
> Not at all. I perfectly accept that a person and a community would not accept the Baal Hatanya or the Arizal on these matters.
Let's not waffle. How can you accept that? If you are convinced of the science, then you MUST say that the Baal Hatania is correct. (I use Baal Hatania to mean all of the rationalizations, such as Slifkin, Meor Einayim, etc. If I misunderstand you, please correct me). To say the Torah is Literal means it's false, ay least to you.
> the fact that Kabbalah says that this happened in the spiritual world of Gan Eden and not on earth
Once you say this, it's all allegory, you can twist anything to meany anything. What about sh'mos?
IC, thats the problem with debating. It doesn't usually accomplish much.
>Once you say this, it's all allegory, you can twist anything to meany anything. What about sh'mos?
> NOT AT ALL!!!! No, that is NOT what it means.
You switched to saying that it ocurred in Gan Eden and not Earth.
Then I CAN say anything I want. Murder is only illegal for XYZ, etc.
I know what you mean about the symbolism behind the Madonna's but I don't see the relevance.
> To say the Torah is Literal means it's false, ay least to you.
> I dissagree. I use to think that post modernism's look at writing was all B.S. I use to say, "They don't understand the book, or the poem, so they say its genious so they can milk some profit from it" but after learning Halacha, I have had to change my mind......
I understand Eilu V'eilu but I don't see that aplicable here. Not on something as fundamental to our religion. How come we don't say Eilu V'eilu about "conservative othodoxy". Even if you're going to accept Charedi dogma as a possibility, they'll never accept you.
BTW, I posted my reply in "private orthopraxy"
OK, I admit that remark about conservative was way off base. Off course we don't say Eilu Veulu about them.
I still don't get the Madonna connection.
And sure, all my life I went with the presumtion that Chazal are correct. But at some point I reached a tipping point and now have to start questioning the other way. And once you do that, things make much better sense.
> Are you understanding Torah on the same level that people are understanding science? I spent many years learning, and still do. I believe I know more learning than science.
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