03 September 2006

A dog's death.

Congratulations, Happywithhislot, you seem to have the intuition.




Continued from Yesterdays Shhhh post.



The plain simple truth is that my wife is happy.

I don't know how old you, but as you get older, you may start to
wonder about the purpose of it all. And that's when having true faith,
is a real advantage. Many years ago, I read a book by Rabbi Avigdor
Miller, and I naively thought his science and proofs against
evolution made lots of sense. As I was more exposed to the world, I
changed my mind.

But, one statement that he made will forever stay with me.

I paraphrase - " What do the evolutionists have to offer the world
other than a dog's death?".

(We'll address the God issue eventually).

In my youth, I did not fully appreciate it. I do now.

Religious Jews put in a lot of effort; and their whole being and sense of values is infused with Yiddishkeit. It also creates a strong sense of purpose. I'm sure everyone at some point in their lives wonders what the heck it's all about. Torah, and other fundamental religions, probably addresses that better than any other philosophies. It forestalls the answer to the future, so no answer is necessary.

When I was child, a Rebbi once said to the class "If I'd be a goy, I'd throw myself off the nearest building. They eat to live and live to eat." Obviously it's not so simple; you don't see hundreds of "goyim" jumping off buildings every day. Most "goyim" live happy productive lives. Maybe because they're also religious. But even those that aren't seem to manage just fine without that carrot at the end of the stick. Or they just have a different carrot.

But take someone who grew up with a strong sense of self connected to an afterlife and religion, and then remove that afterlife. Well, that really opens up a can of worms. At least it does for me.

So let's say I confide in my wife.

It could go one of three ways:

1) My wife totally rejects my way of thinking. So on top of confusion on her part as to how this came about, she's forever disappointed in me. No, LY she won't throw me out as you suggested . (LY, just curious, if you found out your wife or child had Kefira on their mind, would you really throw them out? I doubt it.)

2) My wife stays unconvinced but turns into someone like GH, who seems to be going through endless turmoil in finding his way. Not good. And eventually she'll probably end up as choice 3 below.

3) My wife is sold. Wonderful - So now we've got two depressed individuals.


My wife, like myself, has an enormous stake in the community, family and our social life in general.

Other than a shoulder to cry on, which I could certainly use, there's not much to be gained. I don't want to put my wife through this torment of living a lie.

Of course, one day, I may change my mind.

But right now, I follow my old dictum of one day at a time.


N.B.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm clinically depressed or anything like that. But the future weighs heavily on my mind. I will have to re-define myself and find a different carrot. The challenge is doing that within the societal and self imposed parameters of OJ observance. I got a big job ahead of me.

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    72 Comments:

    At September 06, 2006 3:13 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Torah, and other fundamental religions, probably addresses that better than any other philosophies. It forestalls the answer to the future, so no answer is necessary.

    I really must have a different religion than you.

    The reason I chose Judiasim over Nihilism, Paganism, Shamanism, Buddhism, Athiesm (slightly different than nihilism), and Secular humanism was because Judaism was the only school of thought that gave me a reason to stay alive, here , in this "physical world"

    At one point in my life, I could have chosen any of those paths. I chose Judaism, because it was the most rational, and had the most answers for the here and now,... And Ironically, it actually has the LEAST amount of certaintiy about the After life.

     
    At September 06, 2006 3:37 PM, Blogger Jewish Atheist said...

    It could go one of three ways:

    Couldn't she maybe come to understand you and your journey without losing her faith? I'm not saying it can't go badly, but it's not inevitable.

    Other than a shoulder to cry on, which I could certainly use, there's not much to be gained. I don't want to put my wife through this torment of living a lie.

    Don't you worry that hiding it will eat away at your marriage? If you can't share such an important part of your inner life with her, how can she really know you?

    Keep in mind, I've never been married, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. :-) I hope whatever you choose, things work out as well as possible.

     
    At September 06, 2006 4:47 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC, OJ in this world STILL gives me some reward. It is a great social life, Intellectual stimulation, etc. But obviously, I can't call it a real sense of purpose anymore.




    >And Ironically, it actually has the LEAST amount of certaintiy about the After life.

    Yes, but it's a tennet of the faith that there IS a hereafter and you'll be rewarded.




    JA,

    > Couldn't she maybe come to understand you and your journey without losing her faith? I'm not saying it can't go badly, but it's not inevitable.

    If she did retain her faith, it's not necessarily a matter of judging me. There would be major disappointment at best.


    Either way, I think it's unlikely. She's a thinking lady who, as it is, doesn't think so highly of what's going on in our society and already has a strong sense that Orthodoxy is changing in front of our eyes. A couple of "wrong" books and it's probably all over.

    As for the marriage, so far (7 years or so of skepticsim in a much longer marriage), it's none for the worse. We've grown very much together like many marriages.
    If we'd be newlyweds, in the relationship building phase, it would be a very different story.


    But you're definitely right, there's "the road not taken"; Maybe my marriage would be better if I spilled the beans. And maybe everthing would work out great.

    But right now, I look at it as her piece of mind as opposed to mine. (The things we do for our loved ones.)

     
    At September 06, 2006 7:45 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    its why i wont share my issues with my kids.

    is there something holding you back from having something you cant because youre wife believes?

    or is it more like this:
    in my neighborhood the rabbi is conducting marriage lessons for men.
    he gives homework. one of the assignments is to ask your wife what spiritual growth she wants for her and you.
    now as a skeptic, how do you fake your self to want to be spiritual. what if your wife gets inspired by some speaker to want to be more spiritual?

     
    At September 06, 2006 8:05 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >But obviously, I can't call it a real sense of purpose anymore.

    Why not?

    Here are my lists of "purpose" that I get from Judaism, and I put them in no particular order (although I think some purposes are greater than others)

    1. Prepare yourself for the "world to come" (either your spiritual afterlife, or the days of Moshiach depending on how you understand that)

    2. To help Gd in his creation. (this takes on ideas of spiritual Tikkun Olam, or just being another piece in the puzzle of life which moves it closer to the days of Moshiach)

    3. To learn how to have a true relationship and thus maximise your human potential. (this goes off the idea that Gd created you, and so his intrusction manual will tell you the best way to live your life, even if you don't understand it quite yet. Everything Judaism makes you do, is a training method for your animal body so that your more human self can enjoy the relationships it has with other people)

    Now, 1 and 2 clearly can't work if you don't believe in Gd or non physical reality. However, 3 still gives you purpose even if you don't buy the premise. Since you say that you agree with the outcome, you can see your "false relationship with Gd" as a mere practice and training ground for the human relationships you are in, or have not yet had. My bubbe at the age of 90 is still learning new things about people. (or so she says) There is still plenty purpose, its just not as grand as what you thought the purpose use to be.

    This would be similar to a highschool student who thinks the purpose of education is to learn the great mysteries of life, and then when he gets to College, he finds out the real purpose is just to get a higher paying job.

     
    At September 06, 2006 8:08 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Just FYI, my own personal growth was that I started with 3, moved to 1, and then went to 2, although I hoped for 2 all along but never understood how it was logicaly possible untill recently.

     
    At September 06, 2006 9:18 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    i think if ly wife told him she was a skeptic, he thinks he would get divorced.

    if he saw her making the kids skeptics, he would get divorced.

    i would agree with him (my virtualization of him) on the second scenario. at that point the wife is lehachis, and that middah will manifest itself in many other detrimental ways.
    (

     
    At September 06, 2006 10:45 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC,

    >Why not?

    Here are my lists of "purpose" that I get from Judaism, and I put them in no particular order (although I think some purposes are greater than others)

    > 1. Prepare yourself for the "world to come" (either your spiritual afterlife, or the days of Moshiach depending on how you understand that)


    Not applicable to me as in "olam Haba". I.E Schar for Learning, davning.

    > 2. To help Gd in his creation. (this takes on ideas of spiritual Tikkun Olam, or just being another piece in the puzzle of life which moves it closer to the days of Moshiach)


    Help God? The right thing to do would be spend time in thirld world countries helping impoverished people, etc. (I'm hoping that's what you mean)

    > 3. To learn how to have a true relationship and thus maximise your human potential. (this goes off the idea that Gd created you, and so his intrusction manual will tell you the best way to live your life, even if you don't understand it quite yet. Everything Judaism makes you do, is a training method for your animal body so that your more human self can enjoy the relationships it has with other people)

    You don't need Judaism for this or #2 above.




    Also, maybe it's different for an FFB who's always had that pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow.


    And finally, yes, there is other purpose in life and I must work for it.

     
    At September 06, 2006 10:48 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > i think if ly wife told him she was a skeptic, he thinks he would get divorced.


    > if he saw her making the kids skeptics, he would get divorced.


    Wife BEING skeptical does not imply raising the kids skeptical.

     
    At September 06, 2006 10:50 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Wife BEING skeptical does not imply raising the kids skeptical.

    Same is true for husbands.

     
    At September 07, 2006 8:46 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    dont disagree.
    i was saying IF she tried to make kids skeptics, that would be crossing a line in the sand.

     
    At September 07, 2006 11:06 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Atheists find meaning and purpose in life in other things. Anything which you feel is meaningful can give you meaning. Raising children. Helping AIDS vicitims. Collecting stamps. Running marathons. Playing piano. Climbing mountains.

    However obviously an atheist cannot find any cosmic, eternal, universal meaning and purpose in life. That can only come from religion.

     
    At September 07, 2006 12:14 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    JP,

    >However obviously an atheist cannot find any cosmic, eternal, universal meaning and purpose in life. That can only come from religion.

    Maybe, Maybe there is no purpose. The fact that we suspect and hope for purpose, does not make it so.

    Either way, I haven't yet stated my personal views about God.

    Additionally, the existence of God/Purpose, is a far cry from religion.

    So your constant emphasis on Evolution and Atheism only addresses one aspect of Jewish Orthodoxy.

    I was wondering if you had a chance to check out my post on Cognitive Dissonance. I wrote it partly because of your continued harping that my beliefs were driven by my desire to relieve myself of the burden of God and religion (which I haven't even done). Now the shoe is on the other foot.

    BTW, aren't you from Monsey where they have that whole chicken scandal? Hmmm, looks like the Frummer chevra beat me to eiting Treif. Ironic.

    Isn't there a Gemara that says God doesn't let Tsaddikim be nichsol specifically in maacholos Asuros?

    I guess they're not as righteous as they believe.

     
    At September 07, 2006 12:24 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I didn't buy those chickens. I guess I'm a tzaddik.

    The guy selling them was probably a secret atheist like you.

     
    At September 07, 2006 12:47 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I didn't buy those chickens. I guess I'm a tzaddik.


    I heard it doesn't make a difference where you shop. Many of Monsey halls use Shevach, so if you've been to any Mlave malkas, Weddings, Bar Mitsvahs, you were Nichshal with the rest of the Monsey Ihr Hakodesh Tsaddikim.

    > The guy selling them was probably a secret atheist like you.


    Possible, but I tend to doubt it and here's why. A secret atheist would be too afraid to do something that might out him. You know, like smart criminals don't speed. I think he was a regular frum guy that got carried away with financial issues, bought one shipment that was "questionable", saw how profitable it was and then his Yetser Hora got carried away with him. I bet you he's so Frum, he bought the meat for his own family elsewhere :)

     
    At September 07, 2006 12:55 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    I really don't remember eating at simchas. Remember, gerim don't have relatives. ;-)

    No believing Jew did this. We're dealing with frumskeptic, unchosen, fake, etc. who, like most, was a little dumb.

     
    At September 07, 2006 1:09 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I really don't remember eating at simchas. Remember, gerim don't have relatives. ;-)

    You really are a Ger?

    How about Friends, dinners, etc? Eat out? No man is an island.


    > No believing Jew did this. We're dealing with frumskeptic, unchosen, fake, etc.

    IIRC, Shulchan Aruch divides Phony butchers like this into two categories. Mumar L'taovon and Koifer. So it's not clear cut. I don't know which category he belongs to.

    > who, like most, was a little dumb.

    Right, I forget, never leave a pot unshot.

    Reminds me of "how to win friends and influence people". I heard, if you choose to believe a Medrash, that Noach was taken to task for berating the people of his generation (like you do) as opposed to being an Avrohom (who invited and was mekarev people).

    Not that it would help you win any arguments, but it's still always nicer to be pleasant.

    Hatzlacha.

     
    At September 07, 2006 1:26 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    jp is holy man, he said so about himself.
    guess somebody has to speak up for him.

    is anav a word in his vocabulary?

    honestly, i really think his inner baptist/evagelical/methodist (whatever) upbringing is speaking to us.
    maybe he is talking in tounges.

     
    At September 07, 2006 1:31 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >maybe he is talking in tongues.


    That's certain. Kosher or non?

     
    At September 07, 2006 3:06 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >BTW, aren't you from Monsey where they have that whole chicken scandal? Hmmm, looks like the Frummer chevra beat me to eiting Treif. Ironic.

    THe gemorah says that if you are in a Jewish neighborhood and thiere is a piece of meat on the ground, you can eat it for it is kosher, even if it is not kosher.

    If you are in a non Jewish neigborhood it is non kosher, even if it is kosher.

    So, no, nobody in Monsey ate Treif. However, if the temple was around the community elders would have to bring a sacrifice.

    Why are you forgetting this concept?


    >Help God? The right thing to do would be spend time in thirld world countries helping impoverished people, etc. (I'm hoping that's what you mean)

    This is not what I mean at all. For that is not what Judaism teaches. Judaism teaches that if I improve myself and my community than Gd will take care of third world countries.(Gd agents in this matter is normally other human beings of course, but I'm not going to go into this because I am sure you know what I am talking about, and those who understand understand and those who don't will need a 2 week sereies of classess and lectures to understand)

     
    At September 07, 2006 3:18 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    ic
    Does the gemera say if you buy meat from a treif butcher store in a jewish town, that the meat is kosher?

    the gemera is talking about 1 isolated case where NO ONE knows if its treif.

    Here SOMEBODY did while it was happening.

    Anyway, if youre understanding is correct, why are they kashering their keilim?

     
    At September 07, 2006 3:29 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC, You are talking about meat in a street, Kul Dparish M'rooba Parish.

    But in Monsey, it's a case of Kul Kavooa K'machts al Machtse Dami. Meat purchased Bsofek, from a fixed locale, in such instances is Treif, Sofek D'oraisa Lchumra.

    I heard the Monsey Rabbis declared next Sunday as a fast day to atone.


    Yes, I understand what you mean about the Tikkun Olam. But first, you gotta believe ;)

     
    At September 07, 2006 5:26 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Anyway, if youre understanding is correct, why are they kashering their keilim?

    Because its Monsey!! :P Just kidding.

    I only learned the magical powers of halcha to turn that which is not kosher into kosher. I thought the statement that it is kosher makes it kosher even if they turn around and find out its not.

    I thought this was like the situation when the Sanhedrin is wrong. They attone and correct, but the individuals are free from guilt.

    But I am no kashrut rabbi.

     
    At September 07, 2006 5:28 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Yes, I understand what you mean about the Tikkun Olam. But first, you gotta believe ;)

    Thats what I said.. 1 and 2 only apply if you beleive. 3 is the only purpose that is possible in Judaism without belief.

     
    At September 07, 2006 5:29 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >Thats what I said.. 1 and 2 only apply if you beleive. 3 is the only purpose that is possible in Judaism without belief.

    And hence, why I personally started on 3 and moved to 1 and 2.

     
    At September 07, 2006 5:36 PM, Anonymous monseysheigetz said...

    The butcher is a "frum" guy, and I heard that he did not eat the treif meat. I think BHB is correct, he just got carried away by greed, nothing to d owith frumkeit.
    JP must be a holy man even if he was spared not eating sometimes. Also he is spared not having to kasher his home. I must be a real sheigitz 'cause I bought there regularly.
    And as IC said, the rabbis should fast, us regular Joe's relied on them, and they want US to fast?!?

    P.S.
    Take it from someone who's been married a while, don't tell her everything. There is nothing to be gained, and it only causes greif. It may make you feel better at the moment, but you'll pay a heavy price.

     
    At September 07, 2006 6:14 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Monseysheigetz,

    Welcome.

    > Take it from someone who's been married a while, don't tell her everything.

    So far, so good.

    But it gets tougher as the years go by.

    > There is nothing to be gained,

    Do you speak from some experience?

     
    At September 07, 2006 7:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >i think if ly wife told him she was a skeptic, he thinks he would get divorced.

    I'm a very tolerant person. So I wouldn't D her so fast.

    >if he saw her making the kids skeptics, he would get divorced.

    Absolutely (of course, if she refuses to stop doing it)

    If she found out that for the last 6 years, I was an apikoris and faking it out, most likely she would chuck me if not for the kids sake.

    (Psst, so would 6,000 other wives in Lakewood.)

    Lakewood yid

     
    At September 07, 2006 7:16 PM, Anonymous Monseysheigetz said...

    >Do you speak from some experience?
    I have done some things that I would rather my wife not know about.

     
    At September 07, 2006 8:24 PM, Anonymous Ten Jew Very Much said...

    Actually, LY's wife would give him the heave-ho for suggesting they use plastic on Shabbos.

     
    At September 07, 2006 9:03 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    BHB, I really feel for you. You're in a tough situation.

    I'd prefer not to be a skeptic at all, but the truth is that my husband and I sort of became skeptics together. I'll have to post about it on my blog somtime. So at least we have each other, but we're vary wary of anyone else finding out.

    I think your reasons for not telling your wife are valid. But it's sad and I hope that someday the status quo changes for you.

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:25 PM, Blogger lakewoodyid said...

    >Actually, LY's wife would give him the heave-ho for suggesting they use plastic on Shabbos.

    Tee Hee. She's a big fan of plastic tablecloths (The clear ones that you put on top of the shabbos one). But not plastic plates or cutlery. I agree. It isn't shabbos'dig.

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:26 PM, Blogger lakewoodyid said...

    Actually, in my house, we call the dining room the "Shabbos room" (we only eat there on shabbos).

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:27 PM, Blogger lakewoodyid said...

    >I have done some things that I would rather my wife not know about.

    Is there a human being who can't say the same?

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:37 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    LY, so you would not toss your wife so fast (assuming it does not involve the kids). So what makes you so sure your wife would not treat you the same tolerance? I'm 99.999% certain my wife wouldn't toss me (But I've been wrong before).

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:39 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I have done some things that I would rather my wife not know about.

    Monsey sheigets,

    Oh yeah? Like what ;)

    Just kidding, no one is an angel. And I agree, not all must be said.

     
    At September 07, 2006 10:46 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Billie Jean, Thanks you.
    But it's not as bad as it sounds; it's only bad when I think about it ;) (Lately thats 24x7 and I must change that)(.

    I'd like to read about your story.

    LY, you don't need to worry about plastic, untill it comes time for Shidduchim. And BTW, you own me an answer to that Gedolim and Shidduch issue going back several months. I'm still waiting, patiently.

     
    At September 08, 2006 12:09 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    ly
    (Psst, so would 6,000 other wives in Lakewood.)

    of course, they work like a dog supporting a bunch of fakers.

    they should dump them now, i would venture to guess a good amount of the kollel guys dont learn half as much as they should. they are getting the easy ride while their wives and inlaws sacrifice.

     
    At September 08, 2006 7:29 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >of course, they work like a dog supporting a bunch of fakers.


    Happy, that is a very insightful observation. There would be a strong sense of betrayal.

    But it doesn't work for LY himself. I imagine he's the breadwinner.

     
    At September 08, 2006 10:08 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    ly said that 6000 wives in lakewood would leave if they found out their husbands were skeptics.

    they should leave because many of their husbands are fakers as well.

     
    At September 08, 2006 10:58 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Happy, that's the old joke. How many Men are there learning in BMG?

    Answer - About half.

     
    At September 08, 2006 11:56 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Dear Bos, Sorry about the "dumb" comment. However anyone who has been duped by evolutionists... well what more can I say. Just keep reading my blog.

     
    At September 08, 2006 1:11 PM, Anonymous MonseySheigets said...

    >Oh yeah? Like what ;)

    If I wanted to tell, I'd start my own blog. No thanks. LOL

    >you don't need to worry about plastic, untill it comes time for Shidduchim...

    We use plastic tablecloths, they keep the clean, white, hard-to-clean tablecloth clean. What's wrong with that? Am I missing something?
    (I guess once you've eaten treif, plastic tablecloths don't even register. LOL)

     
    At September 08, 2006 1:27 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Monseysheigits,


    > If I wanted to tell, I'd start my own blog. No thanks. LOL


    I guess you didn't see the wink after my "like what?". :)

    >you don't need to worry about plastic, untill it comes time for Shidduchim...

    > We use plastic tablecloths, they keep the clean, white, hard-to-clean tablecloth clean. What's wrong with that?

    Nothing, just that some fancy shmancy people look down on the use of Plastic tablecloths. I guess you're not into the shidduch scene yet.

    > I guess once you've eaten treif,

    You and all the other Choshive Monsey Yidden.

     
    At September 08, 2006 2:30 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    they look down because they feel you would rather protect the tablecloth than show true kovod to shabbos, but displaying your finest.

     
    At September 08, 2006 2:37 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > they look down because they feel you would rather protect the tablecloth than show true kovod to shabbos, but displaying your finest.

    So now, you're saying it's L'shmuh?

     
    At September 08, 2006 3:10 PM, Anonymous monseysheigetz said...

    >I guess you didn't see the wink...
    I guess you didn't see the LOL

    > they look down because they feel you would rather protect the tablecloth than show true kovod to shabbos, but displaying your finest
    For the uninitiated out there, properly washing and ironing/starching a linen tablecloth is a big job. (Two hours over a hot iron.) Sending it out to the cleaners is $30.
    I rather spend $0.50 on a plastic.
    To me that's kovod shabbos AND kovod "the wife".

    >I guess you're not into the shidduch scene yet.
    No, not for a while yet, and from the horror stories I hear, I am not looking forward to it. LOL

     
    At September 08, 2006 3:32 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I guess you didn't see the wink...
    > I guess you didn't see the LOL


    Touche'

    > I rather spend $0.50 on a plastic.To me that's kovod shabbos AND kovod "the wife".

    So you're not such a sheigets after all.

    Besides "Ain Adom Maisim Atsmo rasha". So, Unless I hear details ;) we should call you Monsey Tsaddik.

    >I guess you're not into the shidduch scene yet.
    No, not for a while yet, and from the horror stories I hear, I am not looking forward to it. LOL

    Shiduchim can be tough. But as I look around me, it SEEMS that eventually most girls do get married, albeit in some cases much later than they wanted to. So, if expectations are realistic, maybe it wouldn't be so painful.

     
    At September 08, 2006 3:37 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    yes, they CLAIM its lshmah.
    but we know better.
    its just snootiness. (if you need plastic, you probably dont have gelt.)

     
    At September 08, 2006 3:41 PM, Anonymous monseysheigetz said...

    >So you're not such a sheigets after all.

    Shhhh... That's one of the things I don't want her to know!
    LOL
    Have a gut shabbos!

     
    At September 12, 2006 10:37 AM, Blogger FrumGirl said...

    Maybe she will arrive at these conclusions too one day... I know I ahve, I'm not saying I dont believe, I totally believe... but what if we're wrong... doubts nag.

     
    At September 12, 2006 11:17 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    FG, My wife doesn't trust the current day rabbonim. For E.G. the cover up of the hashgocho in which they make it seem as if the HAshgocho did no wrong, etc. She takes shotycuts in some things, like I. But her basic beliefs are sound. And I don't want to be the one to bring confusion upon her. (even though she might take it a lot better than me).

    As for you, well I think most frum people have some level of doubt, even though it's hiddne under the table.

     
    At September 12, 2006 8:17 PM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Here's a question: what does she think you're doing when you're blogging? Or do you only blog at work?

     
    At September 13, 2006 12:45 AM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >As for you, well I think most frum people have some level of doubt, even though it's hiddne under the table.


    Hidden under the table?

    You mean like those books that suggest that doubt is the true meaning of faith? Or those books and lecturers that talk about Doubt being more important than faith?

     
    At September 13, 2006 5:09 PM, Anonymous Passionate-without-a-cause said...

    I am in a similar boat as you. My wife knows that I am searching and questioning a lot. I don't think that she understands the depth of my doubts - she just thinks that i am migrating from Yeshivish to YU-ish.

    She is getting shtarker and she has full 'Emunah Peshuta'.

    I am comfortable in my community and with my family - so my doubts won't lead to much 'le'mayseh', so why upset her for no reason?

     
    At September 13, 2006 10:32 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Billie, good question.

    When I first started blogging, mt time on the computer was so out of the ordinary, my wife asked me if I was surfing for porn. I said no, which I wasn't, I was just trying to find out about Tendler and I bumped into nonorthodox jew. So I showed it to her. And she quickly lost interest. Now, It's become the new norm, I spend time on the computer reading blogs and she spends some time yapping on the phone.

     
    At September 13, 2006 10:35 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    IC,
    > You mean like those books that suggest that doubt is the true meaning of faith? Or those books and lecturers that talk about Doubt being more important than faith?

    Which books and lecturers are you talking about that say doubt is more important? It is looked down on like noach who was called m'ketanai emunah

    Again, in your circle doubt and questioning may be accepted. In others, it's not.

     
    At September 13, 2006 10:37 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Welcome Passionate-without-a-cause > I am in a similar boat as you. My wife knows that I am searching and questioning a lot. I don't think that she understands the depth of my doubts - she just thinks that i am migrating from Yeshivish to YU-ish.

    > She is getting shtarker and she has full 'Emunah Peshuta'.

    That could spell trouble, no? I don't mean the emuna but the "shtarker". My wife and I are on the same frumkeit level.

    > I am comfortable in my community and with my family - so my doubts won't lead to much 'le'mayseh', so why upset her for no reason?

    Absolutely.

     
    At September 14, 2006 1:29 AM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    Two books come to mind which I read in Yeshivah.

    1. Faith and Doubt

    2. Duties of the Heart


    I love how you keep suggesting that the Judaism which I was taught from more than one source, is the minority Judaism.

    I had to spend many years discerning what of what I was taught was specific to that person teaching me it, and what was supported by those who everyone agrees is worth following.

    For example, I had to discover one day that the "chumash" I learned at my chabad school in first grade, was actually Midrash, and not Chumash.

    It was only 10 years later that I finally realized (and agreed with, sorta) WHY they taught Midrash more than Chumash.

     
    At September 14, 2006 7:18 AM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    BHB: handy... good excuse.

    Makes me think of how I've approached this blog with my dad. He reads a couple of blogs and I had to phrase my questions very carefully to work out where he goes. I'm pretty sure I'm safe. If I'm not, I'll cope somehow...

     
    At September 14, 2006 10:22 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > I love how you keep suggesting that the Judaism which I was taught from more than one source, is the minority Judaism.


    IC, you don't think that's true? Of course, I could not come up with numbers to back up any claim, but think of all the big yeshivos of the world.

     
    At September 14, 2006 11:59 AM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Makes me think of how I've approached this blog with my dad. He reads a couple of blogs and I had to phrase my questions very carefully to work out where he goes. I'm pretty sure I'm safe. If I'm not, I'll cope somehow...


    Thats a big concern. My wife & kids are not into reading blogs, etc. But, theres always the concern that something I write may get back to them, (Hey did you hear about Ballhabos? He just went to South Carolina, didn't you just go to South Carolina too?)

    So, I think twice about everything I post.

     
    At September 15, 2006 5:58 PM, Blogger Irviner Chasid said...

    >IC, you don't think that's true? Of course, I could not come up with numbers to back up any claim, but think of all the big yeshivos of the world

    No, I do not think its true.

    Which big Yeshivahs?

    HaKotel
    Aish
    Muir
    Nair Yatid
    Ohr Sameach
    YU's kollel
    Gush
    (and the list of chasidid Yeshiva's I don't know the names of)
    Meveseret(I have to put that one on the list out of bias)

    Those are a few of the ones I know. I don't think any two of them will give you the same answer to hashkafic questions.

     
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