05 December 2006

Everyone wants Moshiach


I had a long week, so here's a


Guest post from Happywithhislot.



A recent conversation with my 7 yr old daughter.

d - daughter
h - happywithhislot

d: singing "everyone wants moshiach, everyone wants, everyone wants moshiach, bchol yom sheyavo....."

h: so what's moshiach?

d: moshiach? moshiach is when everyone dead will come back alive and there will be no bad people and we will all be happy

h: really? Why will we be happy?

d: because we will learn torah all day

h: will learning torah all day make you happy?

d: well I don't really want to learn all day, we will also get to watch TV,.

h: do you think you can watch TV when moshiach comes?

d: well we can watch TV on our days off.

h: hmmmm...

This conversation got me wondering. What's in it for women when moshiach comes. According to the charedim they cant learn torah anyway. Whets going to keep them busy?

Anyway, its interesting. My daughter doesn't really believe that learning torah all day is going to be fun. That was a very honest assessment. When us adults think (thought) of Moshiach, do (did) we really believe that learning all day will make us happy?

Of course, you've heard this all before, its this very fact that people point to when complaining about our life in golus. Many of us are so happy in Golus. Even those who aren't, cant imagine that learning Torah all day is prize enough.

Now this becomes especially true when you have Rabbi Wachsman announcing at the Agudah Convention on Blogs that we cant even begin to understand the Chasam Sofer, let alone Rashi or Moshe Rabbenu.

So we will be stuck with the current crop of mostly mediocre maggidei shiur. That sounds like HELL to me. Maybe it is. Maybe Hell is having to listen to your worst rebbi give shiur, over and over again.

Talking about the Agudah Convention on Blogs and the undermining of Torah Leadership. Its not the first time the Internet has been attacked. A common refrain you hear in the Jewish periodicals is the "dangers of the Internet".

My rabbi spoke about women who delude themselves when their husband spends time on the computer getting the "west coast scores". of course, what is being discussed is the dangers of the shmutz that is on the Internet.

I found this interesting because typically, if you tell someone about something that he shouldn't do, the instinct is to at least take a peek.

So why the big uproar over the shmutz on the Internet?

Then another genie got out of the bottle. The Agudah was accused of covering up molestation crimes, they couldn't just ignore it. They devoted a convention to the topic of blogs that undermine the authority of the Torah Leaders.

Yet they aren't talking about the biggest danger, the danger to Torah itself. Why?

I think the answer is because if they did, and their brainwashed bochrum or baal habatim saw this tumah, their eyes and minds would forever be tarnished. Of course Im talking about the skeptic blogs.

The danger is not the evidence these skeptic blogs present. Its the attitude.
The attitude that you can think for yourself. So they attack blogs that undermine the authority of torah leadership. They cant tolerate people thinking for themselves.

I know, there are yeshivish lurkers out there saying, look how full of himself he is. An attitude I must say is typical. You see, the yeshiva world doesn't equip their bochrim with facts. There aren't any facts, so how could they equip them with it. But you need to give the bochrim something. So they give them shtuchs. And boy do those shtuchs feel good. Nothing like a good shtuch to ignore the facts. Better the bochrim be told tall tales of the Medrash than critical thinking skills.

Orthoprax recently made the point that our yeshiva system teaches our bochrim to be smug about their religion, without the tools to make serious arguments of logic. I believe the yeshiva/charedi world is coasting. They got the power, they name the Gedolim, so they don't need to really work it anymore.

Anyway, my Rav notes how woman don't know what their husbands are really doing on the Internet. And I've heard from fellow bloggers who looked for ways to avoid their wives finding out the real activity they do on the Internet. And I'm jealous.

My wife sees me blogging and commenting all the time. She has yet to ask me what am I doing. Now granted, She is busy. But I would like a little suspicion.
So I came out and asked her, why don't you ask me what I'm doing?
The answer? She doesn't care. Should She? I told her yes. She said leave me alone, I'm busy.

Sheesh.
Well I will have my revenge, my darling wife, just wait till Moshiach comes. You will be bored as hell.

Everyone wants Moshiach, Everyone wants, Everyone Wants Moshiach, Bchol Yom Sheyavo....!

*note that there are shittos that hold clothing will grow on tree when moshiach comes. Obviously that means we wont be working, so I think its fair to say we will be learning all day.

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    51 Comments:

    At December 05, 2006 10:07 PM, Anonymous x-aguda said...

    " I believe the yeshiva/charedi world is coasting. They got the power, they name the Gedolim, so they don't need to really work it anymore."


    Interesting insight - Like circular reasoning on their part?

     
    At December 05, 2006 10:21 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Happy,

    "So we will be stuck with the current crop of mostly mediocre maggidei shiur. That sounds like HELL to me. Maybe it is. Maybe Hell is having to listen to your worst rebbi give shiur, over and over again."

    By the way, there actually is some accidental depth in that statement. This was actually a thought I had as a child.

    If Olam Habah is all about learning Torah all day then the holier and more learned you were in your life the more you will appreciate it and be actively involved. The more of an ignoramus you are and the less you involve Torah in your life the more unpleasant such a world would be for you.

    So we all go to the same place but the individual perception and enjoyment of that world depends on how we acted in this life. Brilliant, eh?

     
    At December 05, 2006 10:31 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    I once asked my Rebbi what about those who never really learnt but did mitsvos, what happens to them. He said they get Olam Haba M'duma. Imaginary Olam Haba. Who knows, it might be better than the real thing.

     
    At December 05, 2006 11:01 PM, Anonymous zach said...

    What's in it for women when moshiach comes. According to the charedim they cant learn torah anyway. Whets going to keep them busy?

    Silly, they'll be busy in the kitchen cooking the Leviathan and serving the Kesser wine...

     
    At December 05, 2006 11:28 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    nobody noticed the double meaning of d and h(dh) - brilliant! (i just noticed it myself)

    a-agudah, yes, just like they talk so much about their kavod. what is it that they say about harodef acher kovod. this crop of gedolim and spokesman for gedolim never learned that less is more. think rav moshe, rav yaakov. in their day, nobody talked about their kovod.

    orthoprax - thanks, didnt think i had it in me, huh? actually, it makes me proud that youre parsing my words like a rashi or maybe im the baal haturim!

    bhb - first of all thanks for the oppurtunity. re the imaginary olam habah possibly being better than the "real" thing: if i get what i imagine, i assure you its much, much better!

    zak: now youre talking. i would grill the levyasan, skin side up, some olive oil, fresh ground pepper, and kosher salt to taste.
    about 10 to 12 minutes.
    see heaven for me would be having a chefs kitchen. Im a much better cook than my wife.
    and only malvasia for me.

     
    At December 06, 2006 2:38 AM, Blogger Billie Jean said...

    Of course, the easiest option is to not believe in Mashiach.

    Seriously, though, good post, Happy.

    I grew out of that version of Mashiach quite early on. I'm much more in favor of the life going on much as normal, only without wars, version.

    And of course my version of it included women learning. Actually, how about women teaching gemara to all the charedi men.

     
    At December 06, 2006 7:22 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    Billie jean

    You'll be a regular Nechama liebowitz

    And I agree, its amazing that people believe clothes will grow on trees. And I'm talking rishonim

     
    At December 06, 2006 8:50 AM, Anonymous jewishskeptic said...

    >I think the answer is because if they did, and their brainwashed bochrum or baal habatim saw this tumah, their eyes and minds would forever be tarnished. Of course Im talking about the skeptic blogs.


    The internet & blogs are the worst things that could have happened to the chareidi (& orthodox in general) world.
    In the good old days a bochur had to hide his treif sefer or book under the gamara & be afraid lest he be caught(but it was so tempting & sweet-"forbidden fruit"...).
    Now in the privacy of his home he has all the apikorsus in the world!
    This must affect even the most frum & chareidi.
    No wonder the gedoilim are up in arms against the internet.
    But of course it's a lost war..

     
    At December 06, 2006 8:53 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    jewish skeptic
    who is winning?

     
    At December 06, 2006 9:15 AM, Anonymous jewishskeptic said...

    >who is winning?


    Not the chareidim,for sure.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:56 AM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    Bos, the yeshiva/charedi world is starting to fight back on the blogosphere. And, in the immortal words of Bachman-Turner Overdrive "B-B-B-Baby, you just ain't seen nothin' yet".

    And about the Next World, you are correct. For someone like you it will be a living hell. Sorry to break that to you.

     
    At December 06, 2006 12:25 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    jp
    i dont consider you a rep of the yeshiva/charedi world.
    you post picture of gay men in their underwear. I think your site is an ad for DKNY.

     
    At December 06, 2006 12:44 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

    At least he had underwear on.

     
    At December 06, 2006 1:36 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    jp
    and....?
    You also leave comments about female bloggers, unbecoming of a yeshivish/charedi rep.

     
    At December 06, 2006 4:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    *note that there are shittos that hold clothing will grow on tree when moshiach comes. Obviously that means we wont be working, so I think its fair to say we will be learning all day.



    Happy,
    You are so twisted! How do you think the tree will get there? You'll be diggin' in overalls from daybreak till sundown! Start learning some gardening tips because your wife will want you to grow some designer suits!

    Great post, however innocence shattering.

     
    At December 06, 2006 6:13 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    Shpitz
    Thanks for the compliment.

    I find the mind of a child is so wonderful.

    You had to see my little daughter come up with a way to find room for tv in that world.
    it was so cute!

    I admire her being comfortable to say what's on her mind, unfiltered.

    Oy, Halavei we could be so honest about our beliefs.

    I mean, cmon, clothes growing on trees?

    One recent pshat I saw wanted to say that the Medrash meant modern production. Literally advertisements on paper. Paper comes from tree, money from tree, because of ads you can buy ready made clothes as if they grew on trees.

    Doesn't it strike anyone odd that the predictions where made with the world of that time in mind. (Ie Wings of eagles did not mean airplanes. )

     
    At December 06, 2006 7:50 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Happy,

    "Doesn't it strike anyone odd that the predictions where made with the world of that time in mind. (Ie Wings of eagles did not mean airplanes. )"

    It wasn't meant literally.

     
    At December 06, 2006 8:32 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    Ortho
    >"it wasn't meant literally"

    Many would beg to differ.

     
    At December 06, 2006 8:33 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Happy,
    >bhb - first of all thanks for the oppurtunity.

    My Pleasure.

    >re the imaginary olam habah possibly being better than the "real" thing: if i get what i imagine, i assure you its much, much better!


    I assume you're not counting on 72?

     
    At December 06, 2006 8:38 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    Jewish Philosopher.

    >Bos, the yeshiva/charedi world is starting to fight back on the blogosphere.

    They can't, it's assur. And they can't fight a free press. The Haskala may be child's play to what's coming.

    > For someone like you it will be a living hell. Sorry to break that to you.

    But I'll have good company.

     
    At December 06, 2006 9:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I find the mind of a child is so wonderful.

    That’s the beauty of chassidis. You never have to grow out of that mind.

     
    At December 06, 2006 9:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >This conversation got me wondering. What's in it for women when moshiach comes. According to the charedim they cant learn torah anyway. Whets going to keep them busy?

    Duh, what do you think they did for 3,000 years until Mrs Schneirer arrived?!?!?

     
    At December 06, 2006 9:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >Many of us are so happy in Golus.

    A shame you can't see the Satan's face. He's beeming from ear to ear over that comment. Mamesh Shepping Nachas that Happy' american princess couldn't survive without the stink tube. Boy have you fallen into his trap. You're so farveikt in you're Gashmius, you're missing the gold for your daugher's glued on glitter.

    >Even those who aren't, cant imagine that learning Torah all day is prize enough.

    First dump out the vcr and stink tube. Then throw out this horrendous time wasting concoction called "blogs". Then come crack a sefer with me. You'll swear you're in seventh heaven.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:04 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Happy,

    Ex 19:4 "'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself."

    Does this, in fact, happen anywhere in the text?

    Rashi: "on eagles’ wings" - Like an eagle, which carries its young on its wings, for all other birds place their young between their feet since they fear another bird flying above them. The eagle, however, fears only man, lest he shoot an arrow at it, because no other bird flies above it. Therefore, it places them [its young] on its wings. It says, “Rather the arrow pierce me and not my children.” I [God] too did that: “Then the angel of God…moved, …And he came between the camp of Egypt, etc.” (Exod. 14:19, 20), and the Egyptians shot arrows and catapult stones, and the cloud absorbed them.


    Deut. 32:10-12 explains the metaphor in full: "10 In a desert land he found him, in a barren and howling waste. He shielded him and cared for him; he guarded him as the apple of his eye, 11 like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them on its pinions. 12 The LORD alone led him; no foreign god was with him."


    Later prophets use similar metaphors, but there really is no contextual or even traditional reason to take them literally.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:06 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    anonymous
    you dont get the point. most children will tell you at first what you want to hear.

    but my daughter was honest. she cant imagine learning torah all day would be be any fun.
    its not about the tv. it could of been dolls, her freinds, computer games or whatever.

    re seder with you.
    show me what you got. i find it unlikely anything you say would keep me awake more than 2 hours.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:08 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    orthoprax
    and taking it to mean an airplane is ok?
    in the future, when we have the transatlantic trains, what will we do then?

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >So why the big uproar over the shmutz on the Internet?

    Because of the unfortunate souls who followed your advice that the internet ban is stupid, and today, these guys are the biggest shkotzim and low lifes. It took no more than a "little sneak peek", and off the derech they went.

    >Then another genie got out of the bottle. The Agudah was accused of covering up molestation crimes, they couldn't just ignore it. They devoted a convention to the topic of blogs that undermine the authority of the Torah Leaders.

    >Yet they aren't talking about the biggest danger, the danger to Torah itself. Why?

    You would never be happy with anything they would say. You would manage to fault them no matter what.

    Hey pal, Rabbonim aren't required to answer the wimsy cries of every little baby blogger out there. Molestation issues are serious business. We don't want anyone to get unneccesarily hurt. It ain't something that's to be headlined in the daily lie-net news.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:12 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Happy,

    "and taking it to mean an airplane is ok?"

    You can take it to mean whatever you want, but it wasn't meant that way. Eagles were a common theme to use in metaphors.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >but my daughter was honest. she cant imagine learning torah all day would be be any fun.
    its not about the tv. it could of been dolls, her freinds, computer games or whatever.

    Of course. Her Daddy sits and blogs half the day slamming Rabbonim, Charedim and everything in between. Why in the world would she think that learning all day is fun when her very own daddy is constantly bashing the bench kvetchers????

    >show me what you got. i find it unlikely anything you say would keep me awake more than 2 hours.

    I wonder if you'd last the first 15 minutes.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >I mean, cmon, clothes growing on trees?

    I mean, cmon, Manna falling from the sky? Hitting a rock turns it into a well? Same clothing worn for 40 years straight?

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >The danger is not the evidence these skeptic blogs present. Its the attitude.
    >The attitude that you can think for yourself.

    Yup. They think FOR THEMSELVES. They don't give a rat tail for others. In order to garner more comments, blogger will write the most outrageous statements. No coincidence that the more anti Rabbonim/Charedim the post, the more comments it gets. Huh?

    *Critical thinking*, eh? my foot. Attention seekers. There wives don't give a crap what they're doing online, so they beg the masses for attention. If they would only instead crack a sefer or two, they would become humble enough to recognize that "think for yourself" is the epitamy of arrogance.

    >So they attack blogs that undermine the authority of torah leadership. They cant tolerate people thinking for themselves.

    They can't tolerate people who despise others due to solid ignorance.

     
    At December 06, 2006 10:54 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    > Yup. They think FOR THEMSELVES. They don't give a rat tail for others. In order to garner more comments, blogger will write the most outrageous statements. No coincidence that the more anti Rabbonim/Charedim the post, the more comments it gets. Huh?

    Anon, by definition, if the blog would represent true Daas Torah, then it must be perfect. Hence there's no comments. Or else the comments are moderated. So it's blogs like these that will get the attention. And I don't even usually knock Charedim. Hmmmmm

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:04 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

    Anon,

    "I mean, cmon, Manna falling from the sky? Hitting a rock turns it into a well? Same clothing worn for 40 years straight?"

    Good point. Though probably not the one you meant to make.

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:14 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    >they would become humble enough to recognize that "think for yourself" is the epitamy of arrogance.

    oy vey is mir.
    i guess avruhum uveeni was epitamy of arrogance.

    thems your words, not mine.

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:19 PM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    bhb
    thanks for the eagle.
    I didnt know guest posts could get the art departments services as well.
    you sure do pull out all the stops.
    gien i got over 30 comments, i think its time to talk profit sharing.

    by the way, what did you think of the coincidence that the d and h letters representing me and my daughter are the same as the first letters of the words "documentary hypothesis."?
    (not as amazing as those 2 ayins? ; )

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >Anon, by definition, if the blog would represent true Daas Torah, then it must be perfect. Hence there's no comments. Or else the comments are moderated.

    Let me figure this one out. If Torah is true, there would be no commentary. If there is commentary on Torah, it ain't true.

    "Atheist-True-Logic". (TM)

    >And I don't even usually knock Charedim. Hmmmmm

    That line wasn't directed at you. It was in retaliation for Happy's charedi bashfests.

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >oy vey is mir.
    i guess avruhum uveeni was epitamy of arrogance.

    You talking about the man who said: V'onchi Afar Va'efer?

     
    At December 06, 2006 11:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >oy vey is mir.
    i guess avruhum uveeni was epitamy of arrogance.

    You talking about the man who said: V'onchi Afar Va'efer?

     
    At December 07, 2006 8:29 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    which came first?
    anyway, why are the two points, the fact he felt inconsequential in the face of god, and he still thought for himself, mutually exclusive?

    and is your judiasm avodah zara? do we practice polytheism? do we worship rabbis now?
    the fact our generations charedi rabbis spend so much time saying we need to worship them means they are puny.

     
    At December 07, 2006 5:35 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >>Anon, by definition, if the blog would represent true Daas Torah, then it must be perfect. Hence there's no comments. Or else the comments are moderated.

    > Let me figure this one out. If Torah is true, there would be no commentary. If there is commentary on Torah, it ain't true.

    I;m not talking about Torah, which is a whole other story.

    I'm talking about a blog that purports to be Daas Torah. If you don't know what I mean, I can provide you with examples.

     
    At December 08, 2006 12:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    I'd like to go back to the post because I missed something. The point of the song was what, exactly? I mean if we want the Moshiach we don't have to go singing about it. If we'd rather that he not come for a while, then what do we need the song for.

    Makes you wonder if there were some Lubavitchers who had a hand in this somewhere.

    Another anon

     
    At December 08, 2006 8:03 AM, Blogger happywithhislot said...

    aa
    point is to sell cd's by the kinderlach (the actual name of a group) who by the way, are actually very good.
    when you put them side by side with miami boys, or yeshiva boys choirs or shalshels jr., the difference is remarkable.

    the yeshivish choirs SCREAM at the top of their lungs, and everyone thinks its sooooo cute.

    these kids sing.

     
    At December 08, 2006 11:32 AM, Blogger Hasid_Letz said...

    "He said they get Olam Haba M'duma. Imaginary Olam Haba."

    On what basis should one decide which is the real one?

     
    At December 08, 2006 3:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Re: clothing growing on trees

    Maybe it just means that fabrics will be made from leaves. Takes away some of the wonder, though.

     
    At December 09, 2006 7:39 PM, Blogger Baal Habos said...

    >>>"He said they get Olam Haba M'duma. Imaginary Olam Haba."

    >On what basis should one decide which is the real one?

    What the rabbis get for their learning must be the real M'coy. What people get for the other stuff must be M'duma. Of course.

    Kylo! I haven't seen you in ages. How you been? I never did get round to converting to Haloscan, but one if these days I will. I've got mention of you in my next post.

     
    At December 10, 2006 1:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    The big blogs like DovBear's were taking up too much of my time. I went cold turkey, though I still look at some of the littler blogs like this one. I'm currently in an interesting, weeks-long discussion with someone on Rabbi Joshua Maroof's blog. I'm looking forward to your next post.

     
    At December 10, 2006 10:19 AM, Anonymous tomi said...

    "This conversation got me wondering. What's in it for women when moshiach comes. According to the charedim they cant learn torah anyway. Whets going to keep them busy?"

    nekeva tesovev gever
    not a good assumption

     
    At December 10, 2006 10:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    >nekeva tesovev gever

    tomi, please translate or explain

     
    At December 10, 2006 12:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Just for the record, a nesher is not an eagle; it's a species of vulture, according to many sources as brought down by Slifkin. There were no eagles in that part of the world at that time. See his work for more details and how the mistranslation occurred.

     
    At December 10, 2006 6:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

    didn't bother to read all the comments, sorry to be repetitive if I'm bing repetitive.
    why shouldn't women learn all day? who says the chareidim get to define what geulah will be? I thought the chareidim were the ones who said things like "it's ossur to discuss the times of Moshiach bc we don't really know what will be." and we don't; I've heard one opinion that in the times of Moshiach, only the tzadikim will remain alive, and everyone else will be forever obliviated in the whole Armageddon bit.
    but if you want to say everyone will be happy...maybe the girls who love learning will get to sit and learn all day, and the ones who don't will...get to say tehillim all day...or sew or something...I don't really know what makes those women happy, actually...

     
    At December 20, 2006 11:08 PM, Blogger megapixel said...

    1- my 6 year old once came over to me and asked "Mommy, do eagles have seat belts?"
    2- A Rebbe once told me that when moshiach comes women will give birth every day. How do you like that? woohoo, a mazel tov a day. think of the ramifications. but it wont be painful he said

     

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